Are you saying being Gay is a sin? If this is so I would imagine a Gay person would find this prayer offensive. Being Gay is not a sin. Unlike your lesbianfriend I am finding it hard to respect your right to believe homosexuality is a sin – have you posted on this topic – it would be helpful if you could point me to it if you have….thanks.
Thanks for your questions and comment, Tapman. While I have mentioned homosexuality as being a sin I haven’t made it a central focus of this blog. Why? Because the principal emphasis of the life of any Christian should be examining one’s self, loving and sacrificing for others, and pointing everyone to Christ. I have my own sin to keep me busy, that’s is for sure. And I strive to have the thrust of this blog be one of spurring Christians to reach out to their gay neighbors without compromising God’s truth. Also, we are not to judge those outside the church (1 Cor 5:12-13). This is a discussion to be had among Christians.
Since you are a Christian, and there are many Christians who follow this blog Iet’s talk this through. There is great diversity among those who have experienced same-sex encounters and who consider themselves gay. So let me make an important distinction. Same-sex attraction alone is not sinful. It is likely the product of brokenness (with possible biological factors) brought on by the choices of others (peers, parents, abusers) and inflicted on the one struggling with the attraction. (See “Aren’t People Born Gay?”) Much of the time the attraction is completely unwanted, and certainly nothing that the person has chosen. If someone within our churches is brave enough to reveal that they wrestle with same-sex attraction, they should have arms thrown about their neck and pulled more deeply into fellowship. They should have the heart and listening ear of the pastoral staff and others in the congregation. While this certainly is not everyone’s experience, I read about a gay man who felt that with each genuine non-sexual friendship encounter with other men in his church, his sexual attractions toward other men dimmed. But whether or not that attraction fades, they need and deserve our love.
EVERY Christian experiences temptation (desire for something that doesn’t belong to us or that isn’t good for us) and most Christians will experience sexual temptation at some point. Initially, we don’t get to choose what we are attracted to (though repeated sexual experience does reinforce attraction). It is an involuntary response to certain stimuli. For example, when a large-busted waitress in a low cut shirt bends over to hand my husband a menu, he doesn’t choose to be attracted to what he sees. But he can choose what he does with that temptation. This is where the line is drawn between attraction and lust (sin). Should he allow his eyes to linger and replay the image in his head later? Or does he turn and look at me and say “Holy cow. This is going to be a difficult dining experience,” and then take measures to limit the temptation when she brings the drinks, and the food, and the check. (He did #2, by the way.)
So while same-sex attraction is not a sin, homosexual behavior is a sin. Those who try to get around that definitive declaration within scripture have to perform textual and interpretive acrobatics. You can find some who will explain away each reference to homosexuality in scripture using dubious methods. But an honest and educated reading of the text informed by the original language will reveal what a simple reading in English plainly states: God is opposed to any sex outside of a heterosexual marriage. The Rev. Tom Brock of Minneapolis, a celibate gay man, said that the church’s role is to call sexual sinners, including sexually active gay people, to repentance. ‘To tell people that you can impenitently live in sin and just be fine with the church is not a teaching of the New Testament.’
Those outside of the church get to make their own decisions about the way they live. Our responsibility toward them is to love them and to demonstrate what life with Christ looks like. However, those who are serious about following Christ will lay everything at His feet including our sexual desires.
While a biblical worldview will reject the narrative that homosexuality is a positive variation of human sexuality (which is so often how it is presented in the media) true Christianity also recognizes that immeasurable worth of every person- gay or straight. A true disciple of Christ will be the first to stand up for a teen being bullied, make her best meal for her lesbian neighbors when they are sick, and will open the door of her heart wide to her gay family member. While these two concepts seem to be in paradox, true Christianity will do both.
I struggle. I struggle with being harsh with my children, trying to control my husband, wanting to keep my money for myself, and exaggerating to make myself look good (among other inclinations). I have to repeatedly confess these things to God, my husband, and my close friends. To have these feelings is not in and of themselves sinful. But allowing these tendencies to drive my decision-making IS sinful. For me to say that God approves of any of the above is simply twisting what God has plainly forbidden in scripture. Like everything else in my life, these propensities have to come under Christ’s lordship. They may never go away, but they will rule me less and less as I mature.
I want to close with a quote by Bryan Magana from his post “I’m (kinda sorta yeah nor really) gay.” If you have a few more moments, read the entire post. Bryan is amazingly vulnerable and full of hope.
So am I gay?
Here’s the problem: it’s hard to cram a whole conversation’s worth of cultural context, theological concepts and personal convictions into “yes” or “no.” For Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction, the answer is really “yes and no.” Yes on the surface level (being attracted to the same sex) and no in the truest sense (as a new creation in Christ). So if someone asked if I’m gay, the best answer is “Kinda sorta yeah not really.” It’s a complicated answer. But so is the question.
A more important question to answer is one that Jesus asked Peter: “Do you love me?” My answer is yes. A thousand times yes! By the grace of God, my love for Christ is greater than my attraction to men. Love enables me to pursue holiness rather than homosexuality. Love compels me to serve God rather than my own selfish desires, however “natural” they may seem. Jesus makes singleness, celibacy and everything else that comes with same-sex attraction worth it. Indeed, the life I’m choosing to live can hardly be called a sacrifice…
God help me to live with the same purpose, passion and abandon.
Also see “Jesus Never Mentioned Homosexuality”
The above questions were asked after the posts “What is a ‘bigot’ anyway” and “Biblical Letter from Christians to Gay People.“
60 thoughts on “Is being gay a sin?”
I am gay and a Christian at the same time (though I still am young in the faith, a year maybe). Truth be told, there are times when these two really just don’t seem to go together. Sometimes, I find it very difficult to be both. But here’s what I believe in:
I know that the Bible says that a man sleeping with a man is a sin. We also know that the Bible also lists a lot of other commandments. We Christians know that nobody was able nor will be able to follow all these and so all of us are considered sinners and that all of us deserve to go to hell. But that’s where Jesus comes in. It’s no longer about the laws or commandments — Christianity it’s all about believing in Jesus, the one who died on the cross to save us all. It doesn’t matter who you were or who you are. Jesus saved us all, even those who don’t believe in Him. All that we need to do is to accept him as our Lord and as our Savior.
Despite my time to time confusion, I do believe that I can be gay and a true Christian at the same time. I just need more time to know more about Jesus. And BTW, you have a very awesome blog. I can’t help but read all your posts. God bless us all. 🙂
Earl!!! So great to have you along on this blogging journey! Thanks for your comments and for reposting “Aren’t People Born Gay”. And welcome to the Christian family. I pray that you will fall in with a crowd of people who are zealous about Christ, handle the Word of God will maturity, and who sacrifice for one another. “Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and the all these things (everything else in life that God has for you) will be added unto you.” (Matt 6:33) As one who is new to the faith, and one who identifies as gay, I would love to hear your thoughts on my other posts if there are any that encourage you or challenge you. And I look forward to reading more of your blog!
Great post! Thank you for making a distinction that often gets lost in the debate over same-sex marriage. Every Christian denomination that embraces orthodoxy recognizes the difference between attraction and behavior, and calls ALL believers to chastity within their state of life – that is, fidelity for married couples, and celibacy for singles. To claim that acting on same-sex attraction is “only natural” and therefore must be acceptable to God would mean embracing all sorts of behaviors – based solely on feelings – that surely cannot be considered moral. We ALL have feelings, desires and inclinations that can become occasions of sin. The Christian response is to allow God’s grace to guide our thoughts and actions, not to stubbornly insist that our feelings can’t possibly be wrong. We have to have a more objective measure of rightness or wrongness, because let’s face it – as human beings, we’re pretty good at rationalizing our behavior. For the Christian, Scripture is key. For everyone, the natural law reveals many of the same truths.
Amen amen, Beth. Thanks for taking time away from your busy life to share your insights here!
Very clear, straightforward and compassionate answer. Kudos and thank you!
Thanks for the encouragement. As the comments show, it’s a touchy topic. Appreciate your reading and commenting!
THANK YOU AGAIN, for the great Biblical information and interpretation. I WILL PASS THIS ON, and thank you!!!! Harold
Thanks for all your encouragement, Harold!
YOU deserve all the encouragement I (and others) can give you.
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Apologize for the lengthy response – might even be longer than your post!
There is a great diversity in same sex encounters – like you put it. But I want specifically to talk about a person who identifies as being gay.
You say “It is likely the product of brokenness brought on by peers, parents, abusers…” First I guess I point out what I agree with. We are all broken people. To say that a Gay persons sexuality is broken and ours is not would be wrong. To say theirs is more broken I believe to be a bit cruel. It is a reality in this broken world that some people are Gay and some people are heterosexual. I think all of us are still part of the created order that God looks at and says “this is good”. I first thought about this when I considered a friend of mine who has disabled children. I know for a fact if I went and said to her that her children are defects brought on by the effects of the fall, I would deservedly be speaking with a squeakier voice right now. I think we are all disabled, all broken and to compare levels of brokenness would be foolishness.
To suggest that peers, parents, abusers etc is a cause is not really possible anymore and I think you will soon be able to agree with me on this one. The issue will in the end be – how does a person born Gay live a Godly life.
I could look up a whole pile of scientific evidence and we could try and debunk each other, and waste a lot of effort. In my opinion it is conservative Christian thinking that is resisting the truth. For me it is without question. So many parents know there is something different about their child well before adolescence. Similarly schoolyard bullies taunt little kids for being Gay, often before the child even knows they are. The overbearing mother and distant father have been proved to be a myth – but it is a convenient guilt pressure for people to send their kids in for “treatment”.
On that note Alan Chambers, the head of Exodus quite recently made a statement saying that out of all the people he has known (and that would be many) he would say 99.9% were not cured by treatment. I think a 0.01% success rate says something. I do point out, Alan is married with children – and is what one would call an ex-gay.
My churches statements are similar to your view – the propensity is not a sin but to act on it is – theologically I don’t think this is consistant to how we think about sin. The sermon on the mount tells us this – to look at a woman in lust is sin, the propensity is as much a sin as the act itself. However you brought up the example of your husband at the restaurant. Can I be a bit blunt……really? You compare this problem with a Gay persons plight? He is married, he is in relationship with someone he loves, his sexuality has expression in this relationship. Can you see how unfair this example is to a young person who is Gay? Celibacy is thrown out there as a completely viable option when we know full well this is only an option for those with the gift in this area – and I would suggest these would be few. Depression, loneliness, suicide etc are all too common for young people coming to terms with who they are. Trying to change or be treated is not accepted by any reputable health organization in America or Australia.
You mention textual and interpretive acrobatics. I thank you that you accept me as Christian – many do not – all because I have a different opinion, go figure, I thought I was saved by grace through faith. All the while I should have been changing my opinions. Sorry had to add a little cynicism. There is a problem with biblical interpretation – that is – we all have prejudices before we even open the pages of scripture. How I will read and understand certain verses will be different to how someone else does. How I read it will depend on what I take into the reading. This topic as you know has many prejudices – on both sides. These need to be identified. For me, your reading of scripture on this issue takes acrobatics. The Bible does talk about same gender sex but for me it is strikingly obvious – particularly in the Romans passage that the Bible is not talking about the person who is born Gay. I will not delve into exegesis – although helpful it does come across as acrobatics.
My Church refuses to accept women with the same authority as a man and we have clear wording in scripture to back us up so regardless I will probably not listen to a word you have to say anyway….(humour) Cheers
Hi Tapman, I was reading and thinking through your reply, but I’m not feeling particularly acrobatic at present, either in affirmation, extrapolation or disputation. 🙂 It might be trite or callous of me to make the attempt. Regardless, I have no problem accepting that a person can be both Christian and gay.
God doesn’t ask us to do acrobatics – sometimes he does ask us to walk the extra mile though – often in anothers shoes. 🙂
If I may comment on just one part of your reply, Tapman, I would point out that when God said “it is good” of His creation it was before the Fall – before mankind sinned, and the death and decay that resulted was introduced. I do not believe that God looks at the world today, the sinful, broken people in it (which is all of us), and the horrific events that happen either caused my mankind or by the cursed nature of the world, and still says “it is good”.
I realize you said that sounds harsh, but it is the truth. We know that through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and through sin death (Romans 5:12). Death is just the extreme of that: pain, hardship, disabilities, temptations (both sexual and otherwise), and any number of other things which are present in our fallen world are all due to that one original sin. I would encourage you to think about that some more, and see if it might not affect how you view the other issues you talked about 🙂
I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss creation as not good – I am well aware of sin and the brokenness of creation but God like any Father of Mother looks on his children and say “it is good” even after the fall. The whole point of the “Seven Deadly Sins” demonstrates what I am saying – a persons appetite is not inherently evil. My appetite keeps me alive – but it can be tainted by sin – gluttony. The same with sexuality, it is a good gift of God that can be corrupted by the sin of lust. Where the conservative church view fails is that it calls a Gay persons sexuality corrupt – it calls a good gift of God (sexuality) evil, unlike any other so called “sin” it is treated differently. A Gay person, something about how he is created is labelled as inherently corrupt. You are entitled to your opinion but be careful saying you are backed up by scripture – we are hurting a group of people that are not sinning in the way we have always understood sin to be. I do not believe God gave them a bad gift, he is not like this.
Thanks for chiming in, William! I totally agree with your comment about the after-the-fall reality of this life. And all of creation groans for the restoration of heaven and earth and the coming of Rev. 21 & 22. Stop in any time!
Tapman, thanks for your additional thoughts. There was some overlap between your comments and those of lcamyopinion below so, being the lazy blogger that I am, the bulk of my response to your comments are after his.
But you did make the statement “To say that a Gay persons sexuality is broken and ours is not would be wrong. To say theirs is more broken I believe to be a bit cruel.” I totally agree!!! That is why I put the following sentence in my “Biblical Letter from Christians to Gay People”:
“Forgive us for not recognizing the layers of brokenness that make up your life, LIKE ALL OUR LIVES, and the impact that has had on you.”
Also, nowhere on this blog do I advocate for someone who is gay to try to “become straight”. What I say, in nearly every post on the subject, is for Christians to love and sacrifice for those who identify as gay.
Another thoughtful, compassionate and theologically sound post B. If every person who was Christian and/or gay had their own Bigot, the dialogue on this issue would be far less inflammatory.
Awww. That’s just downright sweet! I cited your “God won’t send you to hell” post below. Really grateful for your material and comments!
You seem to have diverted the question by changing the focus from *sin* to *temptation* and then tell your husband story.
If we put that story back into the context of sin the picture changes somewhat.
According to Jesus/ sermon on the mount/ generally accepted christian teaching… sin is always the seed that sits in the heart and it is this seed that gives birth to the activity. The seed is sin as much as the activity is sin.
With your husband at the restaurant the thing that sits inside him that gives birth to inappropriate looks thoughts and actions is called lust. The seed of lust, the inclination, the propensity, is sin no matter whether he dismissed the breast, glances at them, lears at them or grabs them…
The same cannot be said for ones sexuality. It is an unfair comparison.
The church and christian Teaching has been entirely consistent with its understanding of sin. Every other sin or sinful activity that can be named is called sin from the propensity through to the activity and every stage in between. Why is it that for the first time in christian history, when it comes to homosexuality, some people feel the need to separate propensity from activity and call one sin and the other not? I think that you and the churches (not all churches btw) that think this way need to do a lot more thinking and a lot more explaining. The simplistic statement and superficial analogies are insufficient.
As for me i find no sin in homosexual propensity or activity. Homosexuality is a modern term invented in the mid 1800s to categorise a specific group of people according to their sexual orientation. This had never been done before. The word only finds its way, inappropriately, into Bible translations in 1946. Personally, as a Christian, a Pastor, and a Theologian I cannot see where the Bible talks about homosexuality in our modern understanding of the word. I cannot see where the Bible condemns any loving and committed relationship including same sex relationships.
You are entitled to your opinions and it is always healthy to share ideas and to generate debate. Good on you. But I don’t think i can agree with the commentors that identify your blogs as compassionate. It seems to me that they are ultimately as damning of gay people as any I have read. You condemn them to a life of where they are forced to run from every inclination of genuine love and romance. As stated by Matthew Vines (look him up on youtube)…. according to you the worst thing that could happen to a gay Christian is that he or she fall in love.
Thank you for your comments. You and Tapman have both expressed shortcomings with the analogy about my husband. Indeed, the comparison falls short in that the scope of the struggle for one who identifies as gay. The point of the illustration was to say that everyone has areas, regarding sexuality specifically, where we are not able to act on an inclination/attraction/desire. In terms of the progression from desire/temptation to sin is evident in the story of my husband and for those who experience same-sex attraction.
“When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” James 1:13-15
There is a point where you are attracted and not sinning. But once you start down that path of mentally entertaining ideas you are now in the realm of sin and lust. Acting on that lust brings death- often of a relationship in addition to the death of fellowship with God.
Regarding Matthew Vines, an excellent biblical examination and critique of his video can be found here.
Regarding the use of the word arsenokoitēs, translated “homosexual” in two new testament verses, I appreciate another Australian’s explanation here:
Also, if God approved of loving and consensual homosexual relationships, He had 66 books of the Bible to explicitly make it known. Also, in two millennia of church history, I can think of no widely accepted theologian who advocated the doctrine that God condones homosexual unions of any kind. Not until it became culturally popular in the last century did some begin to iesegetically reinterpret passages that prohibit homosexual practice. I understand not wanting homosexual behavior to not be a sin, but that is an argument against not only silence but several passages that state, about as unambiguously as possible, that it is forbidden.
In terms of how I “condemn [gays] to a life of where they are forced to run from every inclination of genuine love and romance” I would say that this Christian journey is not, as it is popularly portrayed in 21st century America, a means to a happy, comfortable life where God affirms all that we seek and desire. If we look honestly at what Christ said about this narrow road, it is one of death. Dying to ourselves. I cannot claim to have fully accepted what this means for every area of my life. God continues to reveal areas that I need to surrender. But I am slowly being transformed through big and small deaths in my daily life. And receiving Christ’s life in return.
And I get that many have objections about a straight, married woman admonishing those who identify as gay to seek celibacy so I will reference other noble brothers who do it better than I ever could.
Darrell from: http://samesexattractions.wordpress.com/
Most of us long for a loving relationship where another person desires and loves us back. On the surface, saying “no” to homosexual practice does seem out of step with Christian grace, life and love. And if a gay person’s identity or orientation is immutable, abstinence does seem old-fashioned, unattainable, cruel, oppressive and unbearable.
However, I believe living with unfilled desires is not the exception of human experience but the rule. Jesus is the model of the fulfilled human being. And He was sexually celibate. (Of course, singlehood and celibacy is not required or expected of everyone.) But an active sex life is not a defining mark that proves a person is fully and truly alive; that he or she is expressing or fulfilling a life worth living.
Bryan Magana from: http://www.thetwocities.com/practical-theology/meditations/a-kinda-gay-qa/
Why can’t you just be gay?
I’ve heard this question a lot lately, from well-meaning people who hope I’ll someday embrace homosexuality, marry a man, settle down, adopt a baby, and live happily ever after. To be honest, sometimes I do desire those things. Those desires are real and intense. But I also believe they’re sinful. Welcome to the already/not yet, where Christians continue to live with conflicting desires. “For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do” (Galatians 5:17). Did you catch that last part? Some desires, real as they are, actually keep us from doing what we want to do. As a Christian, I want to do God’s will. I can’t be gay because I don’t believe it’s God’s will for human sexuality. For more on this, check out some of my articles on homosexuality here at The Two Cities, particularly “Forced to Be Gay.”
Chad Thompson: Like any person who grows and changes with time and experience, some of my opinions have changed [since writing “Loving Homosexuals as Jesus Would]. But my resolve is stronger than ever to remain celibate until heterosexual marriage. I believe that God changes people. I believe this because love changes people; and God is love.
You have a very hard God indeed. Happy bigotting. Be careful about who you hurt along the way.
Yes, this God of mine is certainly not One that I would have come up with on my own. Very inconvenient, this Yahweh. Thank God I can come to Him as I am, without having to clean up first and allow Him to reveal the areas of my life that He desires to transform. I hate letting go of control, crucifying my appetites, putting others first, holding my children with an open hand, blessing those who mistreat me, having to look honestly at my selfish motivations and giving God my first fruits when I don’t know if there will be any more fruit later on.
But how wonderful that He considers all of these a fragrant offering to Him and that in return He gives me maturity, beauty, adventure, self-control, a transformed heart, the ability to have a real impact on the culture around me, sweet fellowship with other Christ-followers, peace, power to overcome sin, and intimacy with the only Living God who created me, redeemed me and who walks with me through it all.
May the account that we all must give to the God who is ready to judge the living and the dead be one that honors the whole counsel of scripture and represents God accurately. 1 Peter 4:5
May God fill you today, Icanyopinion, in anyway that you need provision, grace, and direction.
All the best to you.
BIGOT: Thank YOU again for another wonderful group of comments. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK OF OUR LORD!!!
I made my original comment to you because i was disturbed by your prayer which made the assumption that being gay is a sin. I’m long past getting offended but I am a person that defends. Your reply to lcamyopinion makes many insinuations/assumptions that really are not helpful. I trust you mean well but your flowery words feel to be laced with arrogance. Are you the only one who knows about denial, about putting others first, looking at selfish motivations etc? Is your opinion the one that honours scripture? I know I fail in this – but I say it anyway – respectful conversation doesn’t place the other on a lower level.
Your opinion in the “Gay debate” is not like the “Hate the Fag” of some Christian groups, but essentially the message is the same just flowered up a little. Wish you all the best. Hope you don’t mind if I drop in now and again.
Lord, thank you for Tapman. Thank you for his sharp mind and a heart that is clearly driven by compassion. May you bless him today in anyway that he needs your blessing. In Christ’s name, Amen.
Thanks for posting on this particular topic within the broader scope. This is a question that just recently came up during an “Ask a Christian” night for the campus ministry I’m involved in. Your insight is really great and rings true with what I believe the Bible says about homosexuality as well. You’re right that people are so caught up in pointing the sin-finger that they forget to show love and grace. I love that your blog is dedicated to giving conservative Christians a better voice for themselves on this issue in a practical, loving, and compassionate way.
Thank you so much for the encouragement! We do not have to choose between conviction and compassion, that is for sure. If there are other questions or aspects of this discussion that are unresolved on your campus I would love to hear about it. Always looking for questions to address on the blog that will equip believers with truth and grace. Thanks again for stopping by!
Bigot: Your replies are so very thoughtful and I am praying GOD blesses you with all that you so very much deserve. I am very glad I have been fortunate enough to meet you. You are always in my prayers and I ask GOD to support you in all your efforts. Harold
Here is the thing…. All this love that is spoken about is just fake. its not true love. Christians don’t love gay people. They wish gay people didn’t exist. At its foundation the Christian belief about gay people is that they are sick perverted abominations who should burn in hell unless they apologize to an unchanged God who also happens to be Jesus who said that gay people at one time should be put to death and no just wants to throw them in hell. You cannot escape the foundational beliefs that you already believe. Saying that you care for gay people doesn’t change the fact of how you feel about them. You are just like those slave masters who told their house slaves that they loved them and consider them apart of the family but think they are less than human. The love the sinner hate the sin crap is nonsense for the reason i stated above. Does the sinner get thrown in hell forever or the sin? Christians are the worst and the soft spoken fake pretend love mask you guys put on will ever change how at your core you utterly hate gay people and others you know nothing about. You guys go thru all this love faking just to sense gay people into believing that they are sick perverted terrible people deserving of fiery torture who should hate themselves while making yourselves out to be the noble rescuers…….
Tyler, thank you so much for your comments. And for taking the risk to share them here. I may not be able to experientially understand where you are coming from, but I can see how you see things the way you do. I get that those are the messages you have heard. And if it is possible, I want to apologize for wounds that have been inflicted on you in the name of Christ. I am sorry if those who call themselves Christians have never reached out to you in a way that was meaningful to you and met your needs. I am sorry that the love you have heard has not been backed up by action and so when you hear that a Christian loves someone who is gay there is no context to comprehend it. I am sorry that you feel gays have been singled out. You feel that way because they HAVE been singled out and that is one great fault of the church. I am sorry that you have heard that gays alone deserve hell, because I do too. What God has saved me from is ME. He pulled me out of the mire and set my feet on a rock of refuge… for His name sake and for His glory- NOT because of who I am or what I’ve done. But because He is a relational God who delights in fellowship with his children.
Everyone is precious- gay or straight, rich or poor, Vietnamese or German or Chilean, male or female or undecided. Whatever we struggle with in this life doesn’t define our worth- thank God or I would be wrecked. God is seeking all of us. ALL of us. He desires that we all would seek God, if perhaps we might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:27
Like i said you use the love card while at the same time still believing that gays are sick perverted freaks who deserve to burn in hell unless the apologize to an unchanged God who also happens to be Jesus who said that gays should be put to death but no just want to throw them in hell. You didn’t deny any of it because you believe that. Now I’m sorry you hate yourself so much that you believe that you should suffer hellfire and torment but i haven’t done anything too you. I don’t even know you and even if i did there is little that you could do that i would wish something like that on you or anybody. I’m sorry that you want people to worship your god and loathe themselves and others. I don’t want what you are selling just leave others alone and hate amongst yourselves. Your religion is so destructive it’s turning people against each other for no good reason other than the Bible said so. I’m no longer close to my friends because they now believe I’m a sick perverted freak who deserves hell because of what the bible says and you support that. Did i do anything to them to deserve such a harsh treatment of hatred NO I’ve always been kind to everyone i meet but because a religious text said it I’m automatically a bad person now and even if my friends become close with me again the would still believe horrible things about me because a book told them too…….Christianity says love thy neighbor but it goes on to say that if those neighbors aren’t Christian and don’t accept the Christian God they deserve to burn no matter how nice a person they are. This is the position that you and other Christians have accepted about me and others you know nothing about and that’s why i will be happy when Christianity dies for good but i know i wont live to see it in my lifetime. Knowing that hurts me more than the harsh hateful criticism i get from people who claim to love me and know me, people wishing me hell if i don’t do want their religion and God ask me too like you, or politicians making laws to block out my existence….
Tyler, thank you again for your comments. I wish I could have this conversation face-to-face with you. I don’t know if a discussion on line will do anything to assuage the pain that you have experienced. I am sorry for the rejection and pain you have experienced at the hands of those who call themselves Christians.
True Christianity says that you and I have value, no matter what we do. Christianity says that God loves us, so much that Jesus was willing to lay aside His divine attributes to come to earth and let people know that we can have a genuine relationship with the God of the Universe. Christianity affirms your worth, and my worth. God is faithful to us because that is part of His nature. God doesn’t hate me, God doesn’t hate you. I don’t hate myself, I don’t hate you. We know what love is because God loved us first. He initiated a relationship with us and sacrificed so that we could come to Him. You are so right, we are to love our neighbor, not because we want something from them but because to love one another is a picture of God. Again, I am so sorry for the lack of sacrificial love that you have received from those who call themselves Christians.
Regarding your statements about heaven and hell, it isn’t about being nice or good. What God says about Himself is that no one comes to God except through Christ. That those who chose to live apart from God will get what they desire, an eternity on their own. It is not the “good people” who go to heaven, it is those who are daily honest about their need for God and who turn to Him so that He can satisfy, fill, and empower them to find new life. Really meeting Jesus will set one on a path to renewal and transformation. Christians will hold fast to the Word of Truth AND they will be servants and shepherds to believers and non-believers alike.
Tyler, I will keep you in prayer. You have a poor understanding of the LOVE Christians are trying to show to you. And we are praying that you will study the Bible and understand that our LORD and his followers like us, ONLY DESIRE the best for you. We DO love you and only desire that you will find the LORD for yourself. I pray that somehow, sometime, you will understand this. I have experienced some of your experiences of disbelief in my lifetime, here on earth and I am so VERY HAPPY that our LORD, JESUS CHRIST forgave my sins and welcomed me into the family of GOD. If there is any way I can help you, to join our family of GOD, do not hesitate to ask. JESUS lives!
You response makes me understand why gay people and others have a hard time in this world. You aren’t trying to do the right thing on this earth. You aren’t worried about that. You are worried about following a ideology of hate . You care nothing about other people you only care about people who follow your religion and your God. The us against them mentality. Everyone one else is damned in your eyes. i see why people have such a hard time on this planet. I have no interest in talking to u anymore…….
Lord, thank you for Tapman. Thank you for his sharp mind and a heart that is clearly driven by compassion. May you bless him today in anyway that he needs your blessing. In Christ’s name, Amen.
Hahahahahah…. There you go tapman… you have just been told to shut up and disappear. I was in a church meeting once where exactly the same thing happened. When reasoned debate was threatening to dominate proceedings some people started praying against satan in Jesus name. Your orayer is the same…. nicer, but the same.
I meant the prayer honestly and by no means in an effort to shut down dialogue. You and Tapman have both offered several objections to which I have responded in what I hope is a non-combative manner (though one can intonate the written word through any lens they choose). I have made an attempt to welcome both of you to the discussion. I am willing to answer any new objection that you present. What I am not willing to do is participate in an escalation of motive-speculation and name calling. Thank God we are not called to argue one another into compliance but rather to give reasons and explanations for the hope that is in us. Thank God for clear scriptural commands that tell us that in difficult situations we can pray for and bless one another even in disagreement.
Bigot, I just keeping praying that some of these “off center” people will start listening to the very WISE COMMENTS you make. I especially like your comment that GOD did not call us to argue but to voice our opinions and explanations for HOPE. You are very wise, BIGOT. Please keep up the good work of our LORD. I truly believe the non-believers will some day see more clearly. Thanks Bigot!!
Harold, thank you for your steadfast encouragement.
I posted a comment re. Tyler which hasn’t appeared. I was wondering if I screwed up when I sent it and it got lost somewhere. If thats the case I will re type roughly what I said because i am interested in your response. If you do have it but are not going to post it because you think it unsuitable, thats cool too… just let me know so I wont bother with the retype. What I wrote was a genuine attempt to paint a picture for you as to how your words might be received by a gay Christian. Anyway…. let me know. Thanks.
Icamyopinion, I unapproved those comments and will not allow similar future comments. It is more of the same where you put words in my mouth, twist what I have strived to communicate with honesty and gentleness, and ignore posts and comments where I have made pointed efforts to encourage believers to reach out in genuine love and sacrifice to those with whom we disagree. You and I do not agree about what God says on this matter. You get to choose to believe and interpret scripture any way you like. It is not my place to change the message about what He clearly states in His Word. What I am going to do is make sacrifices for all people, especially those that I have in my face-to-face world because that is my role. You are welcome to make constructive comments on future posts.
Censorship. the resort of despots and dictators. Ah, Bigot, you live your name. How terribly un-american of you… first amendment… free speech and all that. I guess this really is the end of debate then.
Yes, I have high expectation for those who claim the mantle of Christ. And if I am to take time to continue a discussion, my hope is that it will be in constructive, civil conversation- not in debating the same points over and over and not in an environment of hostility. All the best to you.
” paint a picture for you as to how your words might be received by a gay Christian” Hi askthebigot – lcamyopnion said this – I would be curious to hear what he had to say. My whole point of dialogue with you is trying to show you how your words are heard. You may be striving to communicate with honesty and gentleness but that is not how they would be received by many – the ones that need to hear anyway.
What I hear you saying is that the only way my words could be received well is if I change the message. But it’s not my message to change. If you have an issue with homosexual behavior not being affirmed by God, then you don’t have an issue with me. You have an issue with scripture, and the God who inspired those words. And, just to reiterate, God does not come to me with a message of affirmation either. He affirms my worth, but He doesn’t affirm everything that I love and want and desire and dream of. He calls me to be willing to give up that which I hold dearest to me, and He makes me wait for much of what I long for- perhaps until the other side of death. This is the reality of the true Christian life- Luke 23:9, Matt 16:24, 1 Peter 4, 1 John 2:16-17. And in the midst of it all, God lavishes His love and peace on us- wonderous.
If you have suggestions on how I can hold fast to orthodoxy AND be more sensitive in my presentation, I would be grateful for them. But I think we have gone over the road of our divergent interpretations of scripture and will have to agree to disagree. You are welcome to comment on future posts with a spirit of civility.
I won’t take much more of your time, you have shown your colours – just want to point out the phrase you have chosen to use: “homosexual behavior” Being Gay is not about the behaviour – you are reducing these people to a sex act. There is a lot more to relationship than sex.
I will try to be civil – but the thing is – polite words, flowery prayers and words of love do not necessarilly mean much.
Tapman, I would point out that in referring to “homosexual behavior” the Bigot is not reducing people to an action – but instead pointing out that it is the action which is condemned as sin in the Bible, in no uncertain terms, not the desire, emotion, relationship, etc. If a pair of men cared so deeply about eachother that they wanted to spend their lives together, in service to Christ and eachother, and could do so without having a physical relationship or letting their thoughts rest on that (since we are told that lust is just as much a sin as adultery) then I would applaud them! To pull that off would require vast amounts of discipline on the part of both people, far more than I have I know (having struggled with other sexual sins myself). Because of the difficulty in such an endeavor, though, some of the people whom the Bigot quoted above choose to be celibate instead. Still, it would not be in violation of any of God’s commands that I am aware of.
Indeed, I think something along these lines was the very point of the Bigot’s post on which we are all commenting. The point is that it is the act of physical homosexual relations that we should shun, not the person (whom we should love, encourage, etc). At least that is what I took from her post, and the loving way in which she has written throughout all of her blog.
William George: THANK YOU for such an in depth explanation to the people who have been critical of the Bigot. THANKS AGAIN!!
Thank you William. I appreciate your comments. Perhaps your explanation has filled in some gaps that I wasn’t able to articulate.
I pray for William who indeed has a wonderful knowledge of the law, bless him as he hurts people born different to himself.
Dear William, I hope you are still around to read this reply – your view here is very similar to the view expressed by my church in Australia – their official statements say that we should not condemn people because of their “propensity” to homosexuality. This is what you are saying – it is ok to be homosexual but not ok to act on it. The Missouri synod evaluated our statements and pointed out the folly in making statements such as this. If your interested you can read more hear. http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/schaibleyevaluation.pdf The first three pages deal with this issue. I wholeheartedly disagree with the conclusions made in this document but atleast they are being theologically consistant. William, you need to say whether it is a sin or not – this, “it’s ok if you don’t do it” is not a scriptural way of thinking about sin.
The sermon on the mount clearly defines sin as those things that we think, not just those things that we do. The propensity to sin is exactly the definition of sin! We are born sinful. We are born with the natural propensity to sin. How can that suddenly not be the case with homosexuality? Why do we change the rules on homosexuality and only homosexuality? I think the reason we have unknowingly changed our thinking in this instance is because we are beginning to realize that people are born gay and it would just be too cruel to say that God created them with such a cruel make up. So instead we say it is ok but as long as you carry this millstone. There is clearly something wrong with your thinking as many Gay Christians (particularly teens) suicide as a direct result of your ambiguous thinking.
If you really want to be consistant William why don’t you kill them yourself that is what the literal words in the Bible command you to do.
Is being born with an inclination toward homosexuality a sin? To claim so, one must be ready to blame the Creator for the sin, seems to me. Conversely, one must claim (as many do) that homosexuality is a free choice. That remains unproven and from the testimony of many homosexual people,and much recent work with genetics and the brain, unlikely. Common sense suggest as well that the homosexual life is not one many would freely choose. It seems charitable in any case to confer the benefit of the doubt.
Are homosexual practices sinful? For believers who proscribe them, of course; by definition.
Does that provide such believers the authority to impose their proscription upon outsiders? The author of this post seems unready to judge those and in justice, one must share that view, seems to me. If recollection serves, it was Muhammed, not Christ, who said to impose his religion with force….
Thank you for your thoughts on this post, Jack Curtis, and for taking time to sift through the comments.
Other posts that may tie into your response is “Aren’t people born gay?’ https://askthebigot.com/2012/08/11/arent-people-born-gay/
And “Aren’t people born gay?- Part 2” https://askthebigot.com/2013/01/04/arent-people-born-gay-part-2/
Please stop in again!
A very thoughtful essay. Well done.
Pingback: Homosexuality in Romans 1 | TOTALTRUTH.NET
In lieu of a pingback, my response to Icamyopinion is here https://askthebigot.com/2013/03/20/if-you-cant-walk-in-their-shoes-walk-by-their-side/.
It looks like you’ve a bit more of an enlightened view on gay people than a lot of other Christians I’ve come across which is excellent.
But I need to ask, when I hook up with another guy what harm is being done to you or society in general?
I only ask because if you are going to form an opinion on such an important social issue you need to have a sound rational basis for it.
Either you have a sound rational basis for calling homosexuality a sin, or you rely on the bible. Since using the bible as the source is a type of “begging the question” logical fallacy I’m wondering if you have any other rational basis for calling it a sin. Thanks.
Hi Dave. Thanks for your comments. Your objection is valid, i.e. why should I use revelation from my God to shape policy that effects those who do not recognize the authority of my God? And I agree. I lay out my case for why Christians should not use the Bible when they argue for public policy in this post https://askthebigot.com/2013/03/27/engaging-the-world/.
A brief answer to your question: “when I hook up with another guy what harm is being done to you or society in general?” I do not make a case in this blog for outlawing who you get to “hook up” with. I do oppose the redefinition of marriage inter a genderless institution because the public purpose of marriage is a child-centric one. Parent gender is hugely relevant in childrearing. Below are several post where that is spelled out (without a religious rational):
• The five-part piece: You’re only against gay marriage because of your religion. https://askthebigot.com/2012/08/20/alternative-families/
• On how gay marriage legislation effects children’s rights: Chapter Next.https://askthebigot.com/2012/12/09/chapter-next/
• asktheBreeder- The question of discrimination. https://askthebigot.com/2012/10/26/discrimination/
* The Future of No-Longer-Marriage https://askthebigot.com/2013/04/30/the-future-of-no-longer-marriage/
This blog began as a means to answer common questions aimed at Christians and supporters of man/woman marriage. When I answer a question from the Christian community, my answers contain much scripture. When the question addresses national policy, you will not find me basing my case on the Bible. But I understand how that distinction may not be initially apparent to the new reader.
Thanks again for reading and for your comments. All the best to you, Dave.
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