The translation of our letter that ran today in Tempi:
Dear Dolce and Gabbana,
Greetings from the United States. The six signers of this letter were all raised by gay and lesbian parents. Five of us are women and one is a queer man, though we all raised our children with their opposite-sex parents. We want to thank you for giving voice to something that we learned by experience: Every human being has a mother and a father, and to cut either from a child’s life is to rob the child of dignity, humanity, and equality.
We know that gay parents can be loving, since we loved our parents and they loved us. Nonetheless, we have all had firsthand experience with the harsh backlash that follows when the dominant view of “gay parenting” as universally positive is questioned. We know that you will come under tremendous pressure, especially now when both Italy and the United States are being pushed to override our concerns for our rights to a mom and dad, in order to please a powerful gay lobby.
Nobody receives more vicious attacks from the lobby than those who come from the gay community and question its policies: children of gay couples just as much as the gay men who defend them (like the two of you). In all likelihood many in the international community will try to get your shows cancelled, your advertisements censored, and your reputation destroyed online. You have shown yourselves to be extremely brave. You have given us great inspiration as all six of us prepare to submit letters to the US Supreme Court against gay marriage.
We want to praise your courage and thank you for your inspiration. We also implore you not to surrender when the backlash grows in intensity. If you back down from what you said and apologize, it will leave the children of gay homes even more vulnerable and discredited. It is important for our sake, for the sake of Italian children as well, that you not apologize or capitulate. Please support the idea that all children need to be bonded with their mothers and fathers. It is a human right.
If we can help you in any way, please, let us know. We are not all Christian but we want to send you our blessings, and we promise that we will be lifelong buyers of Dolce and Gabbana from now on.
Heather Barwick, contributor to Federalist
Rivka Edelman, co-author of Jephthah’s Daughters: Innocent Casualties in the War for Family Equality
Katy Faust, writer at asktheBigot
Robert Oscar Lopez, co-author of Jephthah’s Daughters: Innocent Casualties in the War for Family Equality
Denise Shick, author of My Daddy’s Secret
Dawn Stefanowicz, author of Fuori Dal Buio: La Mia Vita Con Un Padre Gay
This letter is in response to Dolce& Gabbana statement that “The only family is the traditional one.” “The family is not a fad,” Gabbana told the interviewer. “In it there is a supernatural sense of belonging.” Procreation “must be an act of love.” Children born through artificial insemination or egg donors are “children of chemistry, synthetic children. Uteruses for rent, semen chosen from a catalog,” Dolce said.
I cannot imagine why these two men would invite such wrath, except that they see the injustice done to children when they are denied one of their parents, and they can’t sit silently by while it is celebrated.
311 thoughts on “Dear Dolce & Gabbana- a letter of support from children of gays and lesbians”
at last, at last at last,,,!!! I am gay, and not all gays are pro proud, pro marriage and pro adoption… its high time the minority gets heard,,, tired of hearing media gays taking control and trying to convince heterosexual persons (who are totally fed up with this pro proud “thng” but dont dare voice their opinions) believe that we are ALL so proud and so pro with “we want it our way”. Sick and tired of seeing one sided gay beliefs. There are thousands and thousands gays out there that are fed up with the media giving voice to one sided views. High time we get to be heard… Thank you Dolce and Gabbana… if you were not going to speak up NO-ONE WOULD..!! totally agree with what you have expressed… Well done… dont back down, please…
We are well aware that there are self loathing gay people out there who are happy as long as they hide in fear and do not ask for equal rights, who are treated as pariahs.
But you have to understand you are a minority and you cannot ask for the vast majority of gay people who ask for common sense things – equal civil rights and basic legal protections – to stop asking for them because you have your issues and you are happy with what you have, no matter how little it is.
Every civil rights movement had those who stayed behind. Now continue thaking D&G and attacking families led by same sex couples. That won’t stop equality from coming though 🙂
No matter how hard you wish it to be true- same sex unions will never mirror opposite sex unions, and why should they- they are different. They are as different as night and day, and right and wrong. They are as different as dogs and cats, and sweet and sour. There is nothing a same sex union can do to reproduce the man-woman relationship because the differences between the sexes go way beyond genitals and any hormonal treatments (note to transgenders) – the differences also occur in the brain, as well as via socialization- and those differences occur in how males relate to females (vice versa), and how society relates to each sex, and all unions. No matter how many opposite sex friends or family you add to the mix- you can not and never will reproduce the natural marital and parental union- that one determined by nature since the big bang (pardon the pun).
And, for all your gay pride chest-beating, it is beyond me why anyone feels society, and especially children, need any cheap imitations of the unique male-female unions, and authentic marriage, when we already have the real deal- for better, or for worse. You have no more chance of accurately or even remotely mimicking the real deal than an elephant has of mimicking a mouse. And why would you even want to?
Being proud of who you are starts with accepting who you are- and aren’t. You have all the rights you need to ensure your life, liberty and happiness- which is all the US government is obligated to provide to any of its citizens. But, many of your lobby’s activists are not content- you want (but do not need) to venture into the uniquely opposite sex domain, generated and preserved by a strictly procreative nature, in which you clearly do not belong, for strictly selfish and destructive reasons.
Let’s discuss some elements of your community- how about the “T” people? How do you suppose trannies will parent? How will those children fare, at home and in society at large? How about the “B” folks, while they’re flipping back and forth, as a perfectly acceptable matter of lifestyle, between partners- in or out of ‘marriage’, where are those children needs being met? Sure, some minor proportion of hetero couples suffer from these same dysfunctions, but, since they have all the natural law rights of being biological parents, at least society isn’t purposefully placing children in those dysfunctional households as they will be to indulge the LBGT lobby.
Stay out of the business of procreation and parenting, interlopers. Live the lives you have freely chosen- don’t be posers. If you want children, have (fertilize, gestate, birth, nurture, teach) them as nature intended (according to natural law), and impart to them the optimized survival lessons that only bonded biological male and female parents can provide- for your entire lives.
See anywhere in nature, from start to date, for examples of what we all know is successful.
Anything else is a crap-shoot.
Same sex couples and opposite sex couples are the same in every fundumental aspect that defines a relationship : love, commitment, being there for the good and bad and yes, even if you try to viciously deny it, creating a family if they so want (both opposite and same sex couples can choose not to).
The differences between sexes you describe are the social constructs you try to retain, remnants of the ages of sexism. Yes sexes are different but the romantic love and commitment between people is not influenced by these differences. The parental ability is not influence by these differences. Zero aspects of a relationship or a family differ between same sex and opposite sex couples.
You can make as many definitive propagandistic statements you want but that won’t make same sex parents any less worthy and their children any less thriving. You may deny these realities but they will be out there and the more same sex couples become equal in the eyes of law (as they are equal in other aspects of course), the more that will be evident to the society at large through their children especially.
“natural marital” ? Marriage is a human construct, a civil construct, not a creation of nature.
“natural parental” ? A child recognizes as a parent the person they identify as such through their childhood, that’s the people they form parental bonds with.
Nature since the big bang has embrassed diversity on every aspect of its existence, including sexual orientation and the family unit. The mother of a flegling penguin dies or abandons the egg and a male same sex couple takes it under its care. One of the sweetest examples of the natural existence of homosexuality and same sex parenting in nature, outside the human existence.
Same sex parenting, unfortunately for you, is not a cheap imitation of anything, especially situations and family settings you wish to describe as somehow as ideal when they are not.Families led by same sex couples do not try to immitate anything. In all your anti-gay venomous propagandistic rhetoric you may have missed that. Families led by same sex couples are part of a beautiful diversity in forms of families that exist with their own special balances, yet that produce no difference on the children. As there are good and bad opposite sex households there are good and bad same sex households. The big difference ? a child cannot drop unwanted on a same sex couple. Thus ensuring that it is wanted and loved more than those of its heterosexual counterparts. Judge Posner analyzed that better than I do in his great opinion striking down marriage bans in Wisconsin and Indiana.
Same sex couples have no reason to “mimick” any “real deal” because they are as real and offer as important qualities in their parenting.
Oh and now the new scapegoat of the far right : Transgender people, called already with a derogatory name. Good job showing your obvious bigotry yet again 🙂 Again gender identity has nothing to do with parental ability. At all.
As for the usual silly stereotypes from the far right bigotry on bisexual people they are not really worthy of an answer.
Bisexuality defines that such people are just attracted to both genders. Not that they are promiscious. A bisexual person can be in a lifetime commited relationship/marriage with a person of either sex (as it happens with the vast majority of course) and still be bisexual. being bisexual does not mean neither promiscuity neither the need to be with people of both sexes at all times. But hey what am I trying to explain to th crowd of such a blog really ? We are talking about the most fringe parts of the far right really…Facts and rational explanations hardly matter. It’s all about degredation of anyone different, whether that is a person or a family unit.
“since they have all the natural law rights of being biological parents, at least society isn’t purposefully placing children in those dysfunctional households as they will be to indulge the LBGT lobby. ”
What natural law rights ?? No one has a right to a child till they prove they are worthy of being a parent. And yes no matter how much it pains you many of your beloved opposite sex couples do not pass the test (and that’s why social services exist) and many same sex couples do (that’s why they are parents and raise children wonderfully).
Oh the good old “LGBT lobby”..which is what ? People of a natural sexual orientation asking for common sense things and proving common sense things such as that their families are just as normal and functional. Oh the horror !
Stay out of the life of same sex couples and their children bigots. Find something productive to do with your lives for once. Stop attacking those children and their parents they had more than enough of your hatred really.
Same sex couples will continue providing loving homes to children and being rocking good parents, against all your wishes, threats and venomous hatred against them. And yes, a better society will be build with even more couples willing and able to help raise the next generation.
And they will continue providing their children with positive parental role models, which has nothing to do with children, and raising them with values of love and tolerance (unlike you). Raise them to be actual citizens of a diverse world, one you, in all your fanaticism cannot even start to comprehend.
As I described, the beauty of the many forms of family is seen throughout nature, thus further legitimizing the existence of so many beautiful families led by same sex couples in the human race 🙂
Everything else you say is part of the usual bigotry we hear from the right on anything that it is not male, heterosexual, christian, white.
Learn to live in a diverse society. In this society there will be gay people and same sex couples with children and these children will be raised just fine. Deal with it and do something productive for once.
Thank you, guitaristbl. I am one of those notorious “B” people raising a daughter on my own. I was amazed at the stereotypes in that comment. I have basically not dated since adopting my daughter from China. That doesn’t contradict my sexual orientation–it’s simply a reflection of how I have chosen to lead my life. Bisexual refers to orientation, not to conduct. Once I was engaged to a man. There followed a long relationship with a woman. I do not “flip back and forth” about anything, except whether to read websites like this but I was sent here by the adoption community of which I am a part. My household is not dysfunctional. You can stack my kid up any day against some of the doorknobs being raised by heterosexual parents. If results count, mine speak volumes. I feel sorry for most everyone here. It’s tough to be crying in the wilderness–and be so damned wrong.
No problem. Speaking around here is like speaking to a brick wall of ignorance and bigotry. I am sure you are doing a great job raising your daughter. I admire the bravery of people like you and the selflessness of commiting your life in raising a child.
In a historic study of children raised by homosexual parents, sociologist Mark Regnerus of the University of Texas at Austin has overturned the conventional academic wisdom that such children suffer no disadvantages when compared to children raised by their married mother and father. Just published in the journal Social Science Research, the most careful, rigorous, and methodologically sound study ever conducted on this issue found numerous and significant differences between these groups–with the outcomes for children of homosexuals rated “suboptimal” (Regnerus’ word) in almost every category.
Children of lesbian mothers:
Are more likely to be currently cohabiting
Are almost 4 times more likely to be currently on public assistance
Are less likely to be currently employed full-time
Are more than 3 times more likely to be unemployed
Are nearly 4 times more likely to identify as something other than entirely heterosexual
Are 3 times as likely to have had an affair while married or cohabiting
Are an astonishing 10 times more likely to have been “touched sexually by a parent or other adult caregiver.”
Are nearly 4 times as likely to have been “physically forced” to have sex against their will
Are more likely to have “attachment” problems related to the ability to depend on others
Use marijuana more frequently
Smoke more frequently
Watch TV for long periods more frequently
Have more often pled guilty to a non-minor offense
The articles by Marks and Regnerus have completely changed the playing field for debates about homosexual parents, “gay families,” and same-sex “marriage.” The myths that children of homosexual parents are “no different” from other children and suffer “no harm” from being raised by homosexual parents have been shattered forever.
What happy horse manure reads like. The gay lifestyle is dangerous and harms its compulsive practitioners. Put down your rage, your fear, yor insecurity. Face the reality of facts. Do an extensive Medline search. Review articles brought to your attention in a review of the Index Medicus on subjects such as Kaposi’s Sarcoma, gay bowel syndrome, HIV incidence in homosexual populaions, incidence of anorectal carcinoma in gay versus straight populations, etc..
Any physician who still posesses elements of moral courage must teach of the serious medical and psychological dangers associated with same sexual activity. Aids, hepatitis A,B,C, cirrhosis, hepatic failure, gay bowel disease including chronic fecal incontinence, Entameba Histolytica, shigella, even typhoid, cryptosporidiosis, body image pathologies and eating disorders, Depression, suicidal ideation including completed suicide attempts, Lymphoma, Atypical Tuberculosis, Kaposis Sarcoma, Herpes of various types, flagelate infestations, HPV, anal carcinoma, cervical intraepithelial neoplasia are but a partial list of those diseases which are more commonly found in practitioners of gay sex. The sufferings that destroy happiness, health and well being and are becoming more rather than less widespread in part because of the obcessive prosetylization of the culture by those who should know better.
Dare to look at the wreckage that is the result of the malificent obcession.
So cute :
The observers even said they are the best parents in the zoo 🙂 It happens a lot in conditions of freedom as well but in a controlled environment we can of course more easily observe it.
Nature works in such beautiful, diverse ways 🙂
Actually, most things that diverge from the norm in nature perish.
Birth defects, differential coloration, dwarfism or gigantism etc.
I like how the meme goes from how SS couplings are equal to Hetero couples to how they are actually superior.
(Clapping hands) Well said, you got the words from my heart. Thank you.
Interesting you indicate that a minority group of the gay community have no common sense and should essentially shut up. The gay community represents approximately 3 – 5% of the community as a whole (http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu). Does that mean as a minority part of the community that the same rule should apply to the entire gay community?
Studies on the numbers of lgbt people in nature disagree on the precise number but it is considered to be around 10 % with fluctuations to the people willing enough to say so openly varying depending on the social acceptance of the area serveyed of lgbt people.
We will be able to have a completely accurate representation of the numbers of LGBT people when homophobia is reduced considerably more in our society.
As to your wanna-be smart comparison : The small minority within the gay community that only begs for the mercy of homophobic crowds and do not want any of the civil rights they are entitled to as citizens of course should speak (as D&G and others do – nobody took that right away from them although your side constantly tried to tell us that the vast majority of people protesting and saying their opinion as well and defending same sex couples and their children is an effort to “silence” someone – I guess we understand democracy different but that’s no surprise) – but, and here comes the twist to your logic, they should speak only FOR themselves and nobody else, not attacking whole families and encouraging conservative lobbies (as they have already started in Italy) to attack the vast majority of LGBT people who do not share their views. And that’s exactly what the people who believe in human rights do when it comes to LGBT rights : They do not ask for your right to your marriage to someone of the opposite sex to be taken away because i do not have it or that I should have it only. They speak FOR themselves and for THEIR constitutional rights, nobody elses.
I do not tell D&G that they HAVE to get married or they HAVE to become parents if they do not want to do so (although they tried to become parents through syrrogacy some years ago – oh the hypocrisy). I do not lobby for those laws to be enforced on them when they do not want it, nor I attack them for not wanting to do so (the people are not criticizing them because they do not want to have children – they are doing so because they attacked families and generalized that no same sex couples should not become parents because they think so).
And that’s the huge diffence to what you compare and the huge hole in your rationale.
It’s almost impressive how much of a response this post has generated, Askthebigot. Thankfully, there are plenty of reasonable voices out there and in here, such as Leahcim Senoj and Jae.
Though, for the life of me, I don’t understand how guitaristbl made it in here. So much bigotry and weak arguments in his post.
Thanks for the post and hope to see more from you.
Yes dear of course, “bigotry” is the key word. here. The usual victim card and projection from the crowd who got a master in bigotry.
We, as common sense people are well aware that scientific facts about same sex parenting do not interest.
Common sense observations such as that the people who own this blog, along with others, are the products of divorce and not the “evil same sex parenting” bother you as well.
The strength of the arguments of the pro equality side is proven everyday in academic, judicial and social frames.
In the bubble of the shrinking minority you live of course the vicious attacks on same sex parents without any data to support that are reasonable. Allow us to disagree and support our positions.
As for how pro-equality people like me came here, the dear D&G led us here by thanking this far right blog on their instagram page for defending their attack on millions of families worldwide.
And now I will just provide as a sample the large scale peer-reviewed study of the university of Melbourne on same sex parenting, to continue my string of “weak” (aka factual) argumentation that seems to bother you :
Click to access simon_report_.pdf
This is just the report with the, the full study is also available for anyone interested.
The site of the full study and its details :
I hope my “weak” argumentation does not bother you and please do keep supporting the “reasonable” shouters of propaganda and insults towards millions of families.
Facts must be spoken as well though, despite how cozy you may feel in your little far right bubble here.
Read this verse and consider whether it’s right that two men should pay a surrogate to carry a baby for nine months and then give the child away for money. Who thinks about the child?
WHEN ONE BECOMES TWO
Warm safe and secure, curled up within, joined to her as one,
Experiencing all her feelings and her every emotion,
Growing and developing, feeding from her very soul.
Nature had created the greatest bond.
After 40 weeks I entered the real world,
With mommy’s blood running through my veins, held close in the security of her arms, nature had blessed me with senses to feel the warmth of her body, the texture of her skin, her heartbeat, her breath, her scent.
I could sense I was part of her.
We were together as one mommy and I.
Mommy had given me life, she would keep me safe,
She had shared her body with me but we had no time together in the real world, suddenly she was gone. She had disappeared from my life.
Mommy had chosen to sever our bond.
The ultimate betrayal.
Now we were two.
Grief, fear, anxiety, confusion, terrifying nightmares, monsters everywhere.
This was to be the start of a new beginning.
Like the grief of bereavement this was the deepest kind of loss.
There would be no more sharing.
Mommy can’t have loved me enough. She didn’t want me.
With nice new parents I could enjoy a good and happy life but the hurt would remain forever deep down inside, hidden from the knowledge of the outside world.
Abandoned, rejected, different, not good enough for mommy to love.
I was alone and unlovable in my own private little world.
Nobody knows the depth of the wound beneath my cover. They only see my smile.
Nobody asks if it hurts or of it’s healing. They can’t see it hidden away.
Nobody see’s the tears i cry.
I’m smiling, I’m happy.
I must be grateful for the good things in life I have.
Repressing my thoughts and feelings I must live with it.
But I can never forget.
Such a profound traumatic experience has an everlasting pain.
far to much to read, sorry, make it short if you want our attention
You’re kidding, right, ‘bloss’?
Because, we really would not want to bog down any debate about the welfare of children, and society overall, with too many words-
in debates, one must be short, straight to the point,,, if you want to be heard…. i havent read what you put because its too long and there are other “things” to read… its a human reaction, its eye contact that is short and precise,,, if you have too much to say, no one will listen,,, its not personal,,
What a sad little poem, trying to convince us of the all bad of syrrogacy. Yeah sorry I won’t buy. I much prefer to hear all those happy, fulfilled, wholesome children who came to this world through syrrogacy and recognize their loving parents who raised them as that and share parental bonds with them.
Your surrealistic poem may represent you and your issues. It does not represent millions of children and millions of families I am afraid.
How many kids would wish to have the life you have with loving parents who wanted you and form real parental bonds with them and not the syrrogate. How many children think how selfish you must be right now by not appreciating what you have and would love to be in your position.
But no, it has to be about you and moreover what has to be about you has to be used to deny so many couples the chance to give love and contribute their parental qualities to raise a child beautifully, a child that would appreciate it most likely.
You have lost this battle. Marriage equality will come and the children of same sex couples will finally be fully protected under the law and continue enjoying their lives with their parents. That you won’t be able to stop.
One sincerely hopes that guitaristbl never becomes a parent. Such an aggressive bigoted nature cannot be a good for a child to experience. The anger and aggression is overbearing.
The only bigots around here are the people who try to deny the right to live to the children born through IVF to their same sex parents, the people who try to deny a loving home to so many children in foster care who loving same sex couples would willingly adopt and offer them a loving home and two parents.
If I become a parent I for sure will be a better parent than you will be.
The anger and aggresion from your side on so many happy, fulfilled, wholesome children who love their same sex parents and wouldn’t change them for anything is very obvious.
Lost in your self pitty you so viciously attack so many families and children that have had enough of that already.
Such a vicious nature stemming from personal issues against so many families is definately poisonous to children.
A right to live? Do you mean when 7 embryos are implanted by force into woman and then the loving Daddies want “reductions”, is that what you mean by the right to live? Or maybe you mean those really messy situations when the kid did not come out the ways the Daddies wanted–that kind of allowed to live? Nobody other than the men that champion reproductive slavery kill women and children–So You sound like a sociopath, get over yourself. Your rage is meaningless, your entitlement–zippo. There is not a single country in the West that allows for reproductive slavery. India, much of Africa and Asia have banned it for Gay couples because they were so brutal to the women and caused the deaths of so many women. Really I think women’s lives–are worth more than what men want. And so do feminists world wide and so does the United Nations. Those my friend are not families . Those children are bought–synthetic creations. They will grow up and ask how did they come to be and when they retrace what was done to their mothers they will have nothing but contempt and horror. And that will end of this. And history will remember only the abusive aggressive pathology of what was done to women and children. Slavery will look ethical by comparison. And your little movement will be viewed through a realistic lens and by the acts they committed against others–Yeah we hear everyday from those children–news flash, they are not happy. And I would not count on them being quiet forever either.
Your description of IVF is so scarily ignorant it is not really worth it, it really crosses the limits of paranoia.
Your delusional views on syrrogacy and IVF in the cynicaly, hateful bubble you live won’t change the reality of the families that have children through IVF and syrrogacy.
In the western world no woman is forced to participate in such a process if she doesn’t want to of course. What illegal activities happen in some countries that lack the legal framework (mainly due to the bigotry people like you show) have nothing to do with the legal, perfectly consensual from every part, beautiful procedure of bringing a child to life who wouldn’t live otherwise if its parents did not give it to him by providing a loving home to raise children.
These children will grow up and in their majority will be thankful to the parents to whom they own their very existence and of course the syrrogate or donor who willingly participated in the process. That won’t chiange who their parents are though, no matter how much you want to force on them your views and make them think what you think because of your disturbed mental situation due to childhood trauma.
History will remember you and your ilk with horror and shame (as it already does as IVF and syrrogacy have been around for years already). People who wanted to deny these children born through IVF their right to live, who tried to force on those children the view they should feel problematic and on those women who willingly participated in this beautiful process to carry the child of a loving couple that they are somehow “slaves” for doing something commendable, brave and selfless for helping a loving couple become parents and bring a life to this world 🙂
Your movement is morally bannkrupt and represents more and more a shrinking fringe minority of far right terrorists who attack families. And as such you will be viewed for the years to come.
Those children of same sex couples, those children brought to life through IVF and syrrogacy do speak out already and all they ask is you and your ilk to stop attacking their families.
They shout it on every chance. But you close your ears like good fundumentalists and shout inane things trying to put them down and terrify them.
The comment section of the article of the Heather bigot on the federalist is one such sample. She claimed to speak for all children of same sex couples (while not being one herself btw). And the people raised by same sex couples came on that comment section to finally ask you to stop attacking them.
The late june when the supreme court rules cannot come soon enough.
People with common sense along with the families and children you attack are getting way too tired of your hysteria and vile attacks.
It is not legal in the West. Keep up with things. And now it is not legal in Thailand and India and all of the former soviet union. The Atlantic Monthly, Mother Jones, and other major left magazines have all published extensive pieces against surrogacy. Soon the AMA will find it unethical to give women with normal ovulation super ovulation drugs. Women’s Studies departments, the bioethics folks are all strongly against ever making reproductive slavery legal and your man tears mean nothing so cry a river Jack that you want a reproductive slave.
And it will remain illegal here as well. Nobody thinks that men have the right to have eggs harvest surgically from women risking cancer and death. Nobody thinks that impoverished women have to serve as reproductive slaves to rich men. Nobody thinks that live human children should be sold on the open market. You will get marriage no doubt. Have a big wedding an huge bash, get a retirement plan. Do not count on anything else. Children’s rights are the next progressive movement. You are so last year.
Everybody knows that the designer babies are sad testaments to a sociopathic male movement. It is not mistaken for love or family. You’re deeply creepy is showing.
Same sex couples will get marriage, their children will be legally protected and they have much more of an incentive now (legal safety) to offer a loving home and 2 parents to children. Fact. A happy fact for any society that wants to progress towards a positive direction, having more worthy parents raising children and contributing to the next generation.
Your psychological problems due to your trauma are getting worse. You are deeply disturbed and I do feel sorry for you. Seek treatment, stop attacking families and children who have done nothing to you.
Keep writing. In this is your healing.
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I have to say as a lesbian and a parent, many of the comments on this blog are sickening. My own heterosexual married until death parents were not perfect. No parent is perfect. We all do the best that we can.
For those that don’t believe that my family deserve the same legal protections of marriage as yours, Why?
Why should I and my children have to suffer financial loss if my fiancee dies? Inheritance taxes do not apply to married spouses.
Why do you believe that I should not have survivors benefits that any other married couple has when married? I have given up a career to stay home and raise children. If something were to happen to my fiancee our children and I would be destitute after a short while when savings run out.
You say this is about protecting children and families. I guess you mean families that you personally approve of, not families like mine.
Thanks for showing the “Christian” love I keep hearing so much about here in the bible belt. I have heard about the whole “do unto others” thing, Maybe it is time to start treating Christians like they have treated me.
Personally I don’t think any of us should be relying on the government for assistance. To address one of your many points, authentic Christians love the sinner (which we ALL are) not the sin. We love you and the children you are raising. However that means we don’t lie to either. God design requires a man and a woman to procreate. God doesn’t want the importance of either to be stolen from the child. Love is honest as well as kind. I don’t know how one can claim to be expressing true love and not warn someone of the dangers of their sin. This goes for any relationship and sin. Agape.
Do you have a legal civil marriage?
If so why? If you don’t believe in the government protections that come with a civil marriage then you can just have a church ceremony and leave the government out of it.
I happen to want those legal protections and the 1100 legal benefits and protections. As a taxpayer I am paying for you to have what I am banned from.
Thank you for your voice on this thread Helen.
And thank you for being an obviously caring parent who stands up for her family.
The people here are either far right fringe activists shouting attacks and propaganda to these children or isolated cases of people who suffered a bad childhood either due to a divorce of their heterosexual parents and now blame their parent who had next a same sex relationship (one of them is the author of this unfortunate blog) or children who may have suffered due to individual cases of not good parents, as sexual orientation does not make a bad parent but it does not necessarily make a good parent either – the quality of parenting is irrelevant to factors such as sexual orientation. Based on such bias they try to draw conclusions about every family and attack every family led by same sex couples.
Their ultimate target though is stopping marriage equality entirely. I am pretty sure they support all the anti-lgbt legislation currently looming in conservative legislatures as well.
You see because they have some unfortunate unsolved issues with their childhood, it’s not them that should seek help and healing as many people do, no. It should be families led by same sex couples who should be destroyed.
Not every comment that is made against gay marriage is from a Chrsitian person, God has no fault in peoples actions; we make our own decisions. You thinks every comment against the cause is from a Christian because we (amongst other) are the ones who stand up for what we trully believe in, for what is right. I am not saying it is fair for you to suffer financial trouble if your partner dies, I am only defending the right of your child to be abe to choose, like you did, about his/her sexual preferences. Gay people (not all of them) tend to be very sensitive around this topics and show themselves even a little bit agressive so they can innevitably show their child (or even maybe make him/her) choos something he never really wanted in the first place. I am not saying there arent heterosexual people who are not the same towards gay people, what I am saying is, you had freedom of choice, let them have it too. It is not about the Christian love you hear in the bible belt, but it is about the human voice inside your head that stands up for the human rights of every boy and girl and for their protection, moral, phycological and physical protection.
Who is saying that my child can not “choose” their own sexual “preferences” All of my children are heterosexual, nothing anyone could have done would change that. My parents were heterosexual yet I am not. The parents sexual orientation has nothing to do with the childrens sexual orientation. Me being married would have no effect on their sexual orientation, just like me not being married would have no effect on their sexual orientation. People are attracted to the sex that they are attracted to, no one seeks their parents permission to be heterosexual or homosexual.
My children are protected. They have grown into kind caring young individuals. They know how to think for themselves and know how to think logically, which seems to be a skill in short supply these days.
The issue should not be gay marriage but that the children who are raised by lesbian/gay/etc partners are not the natural child of at least one parent. Children are not accessories and just because a person wants one , doesn’t mean they should be allowed to buy one. The resulting children have the right to their natural family, both mother and father. Children are not to be bought or sold, period. Surrogacy, adoption and egg/sperm donation deny the child these basic rights.
An adopted child is better than a child with no parents at all. The idea of a couple having a child just because they want one may seem strange when you analyze it, but the fact is that’s why many heterosexual couples have children.
I just want to make sure everyone’s aware that homosexuality has nothing to do with what I’ve seen you criticize.
Donor and domestic infant adoption rarely has anything to do with giving a needy child a home. In fact, donor conceived children are not in need of rescuing at all. The majority of domestic infant adoptions have to do with taking a child from their natural family due to temporary crisis (unwed, age, finances) which have nothing to do with the safety of the child. Taking advantage of a mother and her child for personal gain in this instance is a horrific crime against both mother and child.
A child has a basic right to two loving parents regardless of gender, a stable household.
You are all empty rhetoric as most others who agree with you here but no real facts.
You can’t point a single aspect of their lives in which the children of same sex couples fall short compared to those of opposite sex couples.
Neither adoption nor syrrogacy are “buying” or “selling” anything. It’s a gift given to a child. Through adoption the gift of a loving home. Through syrrogacy they are not only given the gift of that loving home and parents but the much more basic gift of life they would not have otherwise.
More than 125,000 same sex households in the US include more than 220,000 children, same sex couples are four times more likely to raise adoptive children :
Click to access LGBT-Parenting.pdf
These are children and precious pool of parents for the foster care system you won’t be able to take away no matter the empty, cynical rhetoric.
Again, please, stop attacking the children of same sex couples and their parents to further an agenda. They have done nothing to you.
If adoption or surrogacy is not buying a child, then why does money exchange hands? Giving something a different name does not change what it is. Adopting is not a selfless act, it is a selfish act. It is the adult who has the desire to parent regardless of whether they can do so naturally or not. It is the adult who is willing to pay for womb wet infants whose mother who is likely in temporary crisis rather than give a home to child who has been in foster care with all parental rights to him/her terminated.
You will also notice my comment states that the issue is not same sex marriage or couples that needs addressing. It is the act of taking a child from their natural family and commodifying that child to fill the wants of childless people.
Read “The Primal Wound” by Nancy Verrier and log on to the blogs of adult adoptees to hear how they truly feel. Sadly, most people don’t care what the resulting child, now adult, actually has to say. This shows adoption was never FOR the child but for the adult whose needs they were selected to fulfill.
Simply because in the process people who make a living out of it (doctors, agencies) etc are involved ! People who work to give a chance to these children to life and a family ! What a question ! That does not mean a child is “bought” ! What a vulgarity ! A child after that process has a loving family and two loving parents to take care of them ! It’s not a bought product with insurance they can return ! Although some of you would wish it was to give legitimacy to your arguments probably nor it would delegitimize same sex parenting.
According to your logic an opposite sex couple procreating makes a selfish act as well. Have you asked the child to be born if it wants to be born or if it wants to be born and have these parents that are their biological parents ? No less selfish according to your definition.
On the other hand a couple that cannot procreate (either same sex or opposite sex) could sit comfortably on that and say “look I can’t have children so why bother ?”. But no. These couples cannot get a child simply by having intercourse and its done. These couples have to go a lot of procedures, background checks, agony and angst in order to be able to become parents. And that’s much more selfless than you think or what one night of sex may provide. This is a true act of selflessness.
And of course it does not mean that because someone cannot naturally procreate that they won’t be good parents, it could be the opposite as these couples as I said have to go through many things, have to really be certain they want and can be parents, they have to be checked by the relevant agencies etc. This whole procedure shows how selfless the act of adoption or even the act of syrrogacy is. It shows true love and care for children.
Syrrogacy involves perfectly aware women (your hypotheses are just that – hypotheses. Many times the syrrogates may be people close to the couple who take up this responsible task of caring the child of the couple).
Through syrrogacy and IVF the gift of life is given to children who would not have it otherwise if their parents did not decide to have them through that method. Through this method only children that are WANTED and LOVED come to this world, not “accidental” children. You won’t find children brought to this world through syrrogacy or IVF in foster care, except from the extreme scenario where both parents have died, I assure you. You will find many of those “natural” children of “ideal” opposite sex couples.
IVF and syrrogacy children are among the luckiest in the world because they come to this world knowing they will be loved and taken care of, that they are wanted and that they have two parents commited to their child as they had to go through so many difficulties to become parents.
A child’s natural family is the family it grows up in. Its parents is the parents he has identified as such from early life (that’s why adoptions should happen as early as possible and not let children grow up in foster care).
Adoption is the beautiful process of finding a loving home and loving parents to a child abandoned by “perfect” “natural” opposite sex parents.
Yes children adopted later in life may have the trauma associated with abandonment. That’s not the fault of the adoptive parents, selfless people giving home to a child who needed one though.
And that’s why, I repeat, children should be adopted at a very early age, so that they will be able to form their parental bonds with the people who raised them, their adoptive parents.
As everyone here claims to know better than nature let me tell you that an infant recognizes as a parent whoever is in front of them as soon as they open their eyes. And that may not be their biological parent but a loving adoptive parent or someone who became a parent through IVF or syrrogacy.
Yes in fact the child is bought–usually in the 3rd world and from a woman that has been forcible impregnated and confined in a breeding compound–you call that loving and beautiful. What is that not a surprise. Slave owners always said the slaves were happy too. Is there some script you follow–page 6. It is a for profit business a billion dollar business–it is using women as reproductive slaves and selling babies–creepy at best and should be held in contempt. We do not sell humans. It is not family, it not parenting. Family and parenting are not consumer products and they do not enslave and exploit women.
: “IVF and syrrogacy children are among the luckiest in the world because they come to this world knowing they will be loved and taken care of, that they are wanted and that they have two parents commited to their child as they had to go through so many difficulties to become parents.” Uhm let’s take these assertions apart.
Oh real lucky Mother confined against her will behind barbed wire and forcibly impregnated–wow such lucky lucky lucky kids. What do you want to bet when they find out the conditions of how they came to be so lucky they may just not be too happy with the people that did that to them–every single child of surrogacy its a bought human–slavery is not parenthood. Children that are the result of a drunken fling can be a surprise and very loved.
Look at this way of thinking it is so far from anything to do with parenting–“Wanted” is only a means something as a consumer which is a far cry from a parent. I want equals give me–how smug and removed from the real sacrifices parents make—scary and chilling. The more you say the more you prove the point.
Oh now the levels of lunacy here have reached that far. Women from 3rd world countries taken advantage by evil same sex couples. Right. Should I even bother talking about the many women (even from the close environment of a couple) willing to take on the huge responsibility of being a syrrogate ? Probably not, it will fall on deaf ears with the crowd here that projects its personal issues on so many families…
I explained my views on IVF and how it benefits society and families as a whole again and again, there is no point doing it again. Wanting to compare the gift of life given by a couple who offers to become a parent even if they cannot have one with the usual intercourse route to slavery crosses the boundaries of lunacy. And it no way degrades all the loving couples who have children through IVF or syrrogacy, children realyl wanted and loved not products of accidents and condom breaks left to foster care by the “perfect” heterosexual parents.
The syrrogate (what you call “mother”) is not impregranted against her will. Probably in your heavily disturbed brain. Other than that its a woman who agrees to take on a beautiful yet serious responsibility : carry the child of a loving couple who have gone through all that, proving their suitability to become parents and their love for a child, to offer their parental skills and a stablehousehold to one (or luckily more !). Your cynical, disgusting approach does not change the beauty of these families at thevery least not the well being of these children. Indeed very lucky kids, loved kids, wanted kids. Not accidents.
Most children of IVF should be and are fine. They recognize as parents the people who raised them as such since birth (as every natural organism on this planet as I said) and they were given the gift of life because their parents decided to become parents, a gift the should be most grateful for, if not for the upbringing they received from them.
Children of a drunken fling are accidents coming to people not ready to have them that face abuse, bad parenting or even dropped in foster care. Children of IVF are children coming to parents who want them, love them and care for them so much as to go through a very difficult process full of hurdles.
You will never change that reality no matter how much you twist it and offend these children and all the people involved,from the doctors, to the syrrogate to the parents themselves.
Your way of thinking on the other hand is what causes foster care full of children, unhappy families with unhappy children and unhappy parents and couples, either opposite sex or same sex, who have so much love to give and great parental skill but cannot procreate, left childless because of this sick brains of some people who in their delusion think they have some moral authority over other people’s children and the way they are conceived.
It’s all about you, your bad childhood, your trauma boo hoo hoo. Grow a pair and learn that you won’t judge all families and take away their children because you had a bad childhood. Take your issues with the people that are to blame for your anger and your issues, not on the many parents you currently attack.
You talk so arrogantly about slavery here- the only slave I see is you. A slave of your wants and needs that were not fulfilled in your childhood and you need to cover that by attacking in a vicious way families that have never done anything to you.
Tough language ? Probably. But patience has limits and decency also has limits. And sometimes it takes some tough language to wake some people up.
For the last time : Stop attacking same sex parents and their children. It’s not their fault you carry the issues you carry on a personal level.
I’m curious, why do children need two parents? What’s so magical about having two hetero or SS parents? Isn’t that just an artificial construct?
So what should be done with the children given up for adoption by their heterosexual parents or removed from their abusive heterosexual parents? Those homosexuals that you berate for “denying the child their biological parent” are often stepping up to clean up the mess made by heterosexual parents.
helenmayberry, did you not read my post? The majority of people are not looking to foster-adopt. They want a newborn baby and are willing to pay big bucks to get what they want. The majority of surrendering mothers have not done so because they simply did not want their child, it is because they had no other viable options presented to them to help them parent. Helping yourself to another mothers child is tragic.
I also see you did not read that I don’t believe this is a “homo” vs “hetro” argument. I truly don’t care who does what and believe in rights regardless of a persons sexual preferences. I have a BIG problem with people denying and withholding the natural family of a child unless the family is a danger to the child. And please, hetrosexual and homosexual parents can abuse, neglect and divorce at all the same rates.
So you also have a problem with the owner of this blog and her adoption?
You have a problem with the fact that 2 of mine were from abusive homes, and had been bounced around the foster system for years before we adopted them?
Do you think they would have been better off in the abusive home with their bio parents who were drug abusers, or in the foster system?
Helen, go read what I wrote and not skim. I have clearly stated that there are children that need a home whose parents have already had thier parental rights terminated. These children need a home. Those are not the children who are sought after and fetch a high price. Preying upon mothers who are experiencing a temporary crisis in order to coerce them from thier infant is not ok, at all. Mothers and babies bond before birth and the child is a genetic result of his mother and father and exhibits personality and physical traits that need genetic mirroring. Not sure where you figure I have an issue with the writer of this blog. I guess you shouldn’t make stuff up.
And both heterosexuals and homosexuals open their homes to those children.
Yet some seem to have issues with some of us taking in those children.
Being a parent is not about what you have in your pants, but what you have in your heart.
Her adoption was for the benefit of the child not because she wanted a kid–selfless as opposed to selfish. Adoption should provide a child with what they have lost–a mother and father. If there is a single blood relative of the child then depending the child could be kept with a member of the family. Adoption must be child centered. Adoption is very often fraught with corruption and problems.
Oh good god the biological junkie mother–Yes I believe they would better off with their parents. Drugs in my mind are less damaging than the distortions you throw out. But you remind them as I am sure you do what a hero you are and how trashy and bad their biological parents were. Make sure they know that you think you did them a huge service by saving them from the gutter you feel they came from–shaming people is such a tool of LBGT that I have little doubt that in a few years we will be in the 1000s of us and the APA will have to come up with names for the psychological trauma caused by living with all the distortions that make up the stock and trade of the LBGT community. I have one word for it–toxic.
Please seek help. I hope you find peace in your life.
Helen – you’re likely a liar. I have seen almost identical claims about the adoption of children who have been ‘abused by heterosexual parents’ by ‘good-hearted’ dykes and sodomites. It’s a propaganda pitch, nothing more. The world is quickly becoming aware of the capacity to make things up posessed by homosexualists. After all, a homosexualist has no moral compass.
Dania, if I have not formally done so yet, welcome to AsktheBigot. I appreciate your willingness to engage. However, I must say that some of the people I love most in my life are “sodomites” and “dykes.” None of whom are “slimy” (as stated in one of your comments) some of whom (if you are simply talking about people with same sex attraction) have a strong moral compass. There are gay and lesbians who argue for “my side” on this blog without necessarily revealing their sexual identity. While I do allow commentors from the “other side” to share their thoughts, and in some cases to verbally degrade me, most of those on “my side” of the discussion are models in civility and grace. Please attack arguments, not people.
Vampporcupine–well said and needed to be said
What are your thoughts about the numerous same-sex man couples who are adopting with the sole intent to molest the little boys they adopt? Do traditional couples adopt with this same intent? I’ll answers that – No. Not saying that a parent wouldn’t abuse an adopted child, keeping secret from his spouse. Of course, that could happen. But, take a look around google with regard to the babies/children who aren’t adopted to be loved, to become a family….they are adopted for sex. But it’s bigoted to deny same-sex couples adoption rights! So abuse of children, in this case, is perfectly normal???
Alix, I abhor adoption in the majority of instances. I know many adoptees who have suffered abuse at the hands of their adopters regardless of being same sex or opposite sex. Adopters need to be held to a much higher standard as they are being entrusted with another’s child who in most cases have been told at they aren’t enough for their child either due to finances, age or martial status. Rehoming is another problem as well. Predators come in both male and female form and the safest place for a child is with his or her natural family unless that natural family has been proven to be a danger to the child. Preferably a family member would be able to provide safe kinship care under such an instance. Adoption should be a last resort and children who have been adopted should receive lifelong social worker visits and private counselling so that any abuse can be discovered. Donor children are no different than adoptees, just a different name.
A little misogyny–oh those slutty women who get pregnant and dump the baby– Ta da LBGT hero arrives to save the day I pray your kid is gay. I had to live with “lesbians moms” and their contempt for heterosexuals. If you divide the world like this for your kid brace yourself. You could be damaging you child and your relationship I do not say that to be mean I say it because I lived it. From my experience I would bet money that actually the rate of abuse is equal in both communities for women/mother abuse. I suspect it higher for men–a lot higher. But that is just based on having grown up in LBGT and you can howl I am a liar. It will take a few more years till more of come forward. I’ll pass on the offer to clean up.
Stop projecting your psychological issues on other families, children and parents. How much more clear has to be made ?
THE FACT YOU HAD A BAD CHILDHOOD DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO ASSUME EVERYONE ELSE WILL AND ATTACK OTHER FAMILIES !
How much more clear can it be made ?
If I am raised by a bad opposite sex couple should I start a fight to ban opposite sex couples from becoming parents ??? Of course not, because not every couple is the same ! Learn that at some point !
You don’t have a right to tell this man for example that his moms are bad because you think so ! :
You don’t have more rights that Zach, you don’t have more rights than this young man :
You don’t have more rights than these children :
You don’t have more rights than all those children and parents participating in the dozens of studies that affirm the common sense we see around us : that the children of same sex couples fare as well if not better than opposite sex couples !
We are all sorry that your parents were not good enough ! That has nothing to do with sexual orientation though but with the qualities of each human. So many kinds around the world face a tough childhood, they do not come around blaming every family based on irrelevant characteristic that they think are to blame for their misery !
Sit down with your parents, discuss your issues or visit an appropriate therapist ! It’s not the fault of all those families you attack what happened to you !
Enough is enough already !
LBGT is demanding other peoples children. Biology is a bite same sex does not reproduce–remember? So your argument is: Not fair, discrimination it my civil right to take other peoples children. People who make there own children get to abuse them and I want my civil right to abuse too” That’s your argument. Family is not some post modern game–it is based on biological relationships. Children need a mother and a father They have a right to a mother and a father. People have not thought of these issues but now they are. And that’s a good thing for children–if you cared about children you would advocate for their rights.
Same sex couples are giving a home and two loving parents to children who do not have them through adoption or the above and the gift of life to children through IVF.
They are THEIR children, THEY are their parents.
Biology does not determine parental ability though, that’s where you fail. tough isn’t it ?
The argument is : So many children in need for a home, so many loving, couples willing to be parents to these children.
For so many years we have heard that same sex couples do not contribute to society as they do not reproduce, now that they do through IVF and syrrogacy it’s bad and evil.
Your argument ? : It should be all about me, me, me and my hurt feelings. No child should find a loving home with two same sex parents willing to be parents, no child should be brought to this world through syrrogacy and raised by its same sex parents because I had a bad childhood. It’s me, me, me and my hurt feelings boo hoo.
That’s you and your argument.
Family is based on much more than “biological relationships”. If family was based solely on biological relationships we were screwed as a society. People who should not have children would get a free pass to have them because they created them (something that supposedly creates some extreme sense of legitimacy over them no matter the circumstances) and people who cannot have children but have great parental qualities to offer would remain childless while so many children could be born through syrrogacy and IVF or could be given a loving home through adoption instead of being a product of foster care. Our society has developed largely because family is more than biological relationships thakfully.
Children need two loving parents. They have a right to loving parents, two parents capable of doing exactly that parenting. And that ability is not judged by genitalia but by character and the quality of that character of the individual. Deed down your unsupported all this way that only father-mother couples can raise children is your deep sexism that given women and men certain roles in a relationship, not treating them as equals. Newsflash : women have equal rights, they do not do just housework and bow the head to the master-patriarch, they have jobs and have an opinion on parenting. Parental qualities are gender neutrual whether you accept that or not. There are feminine fathers and masculine mothers. There are overprotective fathers and tough mothers.
No one on this forum has not described in detail a single practical loss children of same sex couples face other than preaching about a supposed right to a “father and a mother”. Yet not a single, plausible effect of that in contrast to same sex parenting, not a single glimpse on why not only same sex parenting is worse but its so much worse that same sex couples should be stripped of any parental right even if they are perfectly suitable parents. Not a single one all this time.
People have been thinking all those issues all these years. With more than 200.000 children raised by same sex couples though, the reality has become evident : these children do not miss anything. They are just like their peers raised by other forms of family including opposite sex couples or even single parent households. And now they see it and hear it from the children themselves (like Zach Walls, like all those children I saw crying out of joy at the weddings of their same sex parents recently) : the demonization of families led by same sex couples was just another part of a propaganda. The world did not fall apart, those children are doing just fine.
I am advocating for children’s rights unlike you. The rights of all those children who are raised by same sex parents and you attack viciously, trying to convince them they are problematic.
All those children in foster care who you want to deny the loving hug and care of two parents who just happen to be of the same sex. All those children not given the gift of life that would come to life through IVF thanks to a same sex couple who care enough to be parents to go through all that, children loved and wanted that would never come to life if views like yours ever were a majority (now they are a shrinking minority).
Nope, the one advocating for children’s rights here is me, all those children described above you so viciously disregard because you are so selfish to believe your persona experiences should deny all those children two loving parents. That’s selfish, deeply immoral and truly disgusting.
As I said thankfully society has at large broken the glass cage of your lies as the children of same sex couples grow up and are perfectly normal. And they see that. And that’s why on average same sex parenting enjoys more public support actually compared to marriage equality (both well over 50 % of course by now) : because even people who may disagree with marriage equality on religious grounds (however mistaken that is since we talk about civil marriage equality) see that same sex couples are more than able to offer a loving home to a child 🙂
Why is the owner of this blog allowing such homosexualist propaganda by these slimy sodomites?
Actually all of my kids are heterosexual. And I have not said anything about slutty mothers. Maybe you should try actually reading what I wrote.
I’m sorry that you had a crappy childhood, but lots of kids do even ones that are raised by their bio parents.
The implication is clear that sloppy heterosexuals throw their kids away and some heroic self sacrificing LBGT person comes to the rescue–that is the false narrative. That anyone even buys it in the 1st is based in misogyny– Yes many kids have crappy childhoods. But those people are still family and biologically related and biology matters–remember “born this way: well children are born needing and have a right to a mother and a father. Yet no other group on the planet demands other peoples children be given to them. Women have reproductive freedom and can have a kid or not. Men can’t get pregnant. In the whole greedy and dangerous politics of LBGT they claim it is some kind of civil right to destroy women’s and children basic human rights and commit endless human rights violations against women and children. How do you think they get kids? Some social justice–what do we want–reproductive slaves, when do we want it–now.
My mother and aunt were beaten and sexually abuse by their biological father until they were removed from him. According to you they would have been better off living with him and their alcoholic mother than with the couple that adopted them, who I consider my grandparents.
I’m sorry if my opening my home and my heart to my children pisses you off, but really you have no clue what they have gone through and how far they have come.
It is clear that opinions on this blog are informed by personal experience and fundamentally held religious beliefs. It is completely understandable as my experiences inform my own opinion to a degree.
I feel for the people in the letter above in that it is clear there is something about their childhood that makes them unhappy. I would challenge the generalization that their bad personal experiences with their own parents must mean that gay couples should not have children. For every one of the anecdotes above I can point to testimony from people like Zach Wahls or Sidney Switzer that are content with their upbringing as children of gay parents.
Ultimately the argument above boils down to the religious belief that God intended for children to be raised by their “natural” Mother and Father and that any endorsement of an arrangement other than the ideal is unacceptable. I know better than to argue theology with anybody, but luckily for me in the United States we have democracy and not theocracy, and there is a separation of church and state. I am not asking the Christian church for religious endorsement of my family, I am arguing for my family’s secular, legal, civil rights, entitlements and protections as a taxpaying, voting and contributing member to our society.
You are speaking way too much sense for a forum like this. In this forum the opinion of a bunch of hurt from divorced parents or unqualified parents etc counts as scientific data against all same sex parenting.
Every study in favour of same sex parenting is dismissed as biased, every child who speak out to defend their same sex parents and dare to say that hey are perfectly happy and healthy is demeaned and put down and assumptions are made about them.
The insanity of the far right fundumentalism will lead to its demise eventually.
Elton John used his huge fortune to build a fantasy world at the expense of these 2 children. This family unit. The poem previously written says it all. The psychological damage these children will endure which in turn will hurt Elton John will be the cost they will pay for this selfish act. It is essential to every child to know who their mother and father are. One day they will want to know which one is their real dad, and this fantasy bubble of a family unit will burst, because it will matter, because they have a birth right to know. I feel so sorry for these 2 boys when they start to notice that other children have mothers and they they don’t. You can not give life to a child knowing that they will suffer from the cruelty of social comments.That is not the love of a parent. Just because Elton John has done this, it doesn’t make it right. In fact it’s so very wrong. He’s a great artist but that is all he is. People must speak out against this sort of action for the good of the children. The finger should be directed towards this selfish gay couple and not be influence by position or wealth.
Elton John gave the gift of life and two loving parents to two children and is a parent you won’t be able to reach in temrs of parental qualities no matter how much you try it seems.
The children of same sex couples do not suffer from any psychological damage, the scientific consensus on that is clear. The only real difference is the societal attitudes towards them from people like you who may cause them a problem. Not their parents and their parental qualities.
Elton’s generous move to offer life and two parents and a home to two children is an act of total selflessness actually, unlike your vicious attack towards him and his family.
His children know very well who their parents are : Elton and David. They have a right to two loving, caring parents and they have them. That’s what’s essential to them.
They will always know what they know now and what the vast majority of children of same sex couples know : A parent is the one that raises a child and is there for them. And they will know what common sense says : Their real fathers are Elton and David. Full stop.
These vulgar effort to project your agenda on children you don’t even know and force them to this huge social torture till they bow and admit to you they are somehow problematic and diss their parents really leaves me at loss of words. You are literally bullying children to say and feel what you want them to say and feel. It won’t happen. These children already speak up in defense of their parents and childhood. They had more than enough of your agenda.
These children as they grow up will realize the very simple reality that families are diverse : Some have two mothers, some two fathers, some a mother and a father, some one father only, some one mother only, some none and are raised by other relatives, some unfortunately in foster care (thankfully same sex couples adopt those children). They are much more lucky than any children you may have for example because their parents will teach them respect for other humans, something I doubt you will given your homophobic post and your attack on those children and their parents.
The “cruelty” of social comments is not the responsibility of the parents and has nothing to do with their parental abilities. It is the fault of people like YOU and the views you perpetuate. The parental abilities of Elton and any other gay parent are not judged based on YOUR intolerance of differenr forms of family.
I am glad you admit though that what may cause problem to these children are people like you and not their parents and the way they will raise them.
People must speak and are already speaking out against people like you and your vicious attacks on families led by same sex couples.
Society is already forming at large a metaphorical human circle around all those brave, selfless gay couples who open their homes and hearts to a child, giving them two loving parents. And the finger should be and is pointed towards homophobic people like you attacking these families and projecting your agenda on these children, telling them what to feel because you think they should or assuming they feel like that.
I wish more children were as lucky as Elton’s children. Elton proved what a principled father he is when he stood up for the dignity of his family and in defense of his children against the vicious attack of D&G and their newly acquired far right supporters.
Go Elton ! Go same sex parents ! 🙂
What every kids needs a 77 year old broken down has been who makes them call him Daddy.
Please do continue showing your true face by attacking these children and their parents 🙂
Btw they are not “forced” to do anything, they recognize the reality you want to take away from them : who are their parents.
(of course if that was a 77 year old heterosexual who had the kid the way you want with a younger woman it would all be fine for you – the problem is again that Elton is gay and he provided a loving home and two loving parents to his sons).
As a gay man I find this thread interesting, I have thoughts on both for and against…I must however mention about Elton John and his kids, you are making statments above when you don’t really know what Elton John does…Elton has TWO apartemts next to each other…He and David in one and the kids with nannies in the other…So I dont think this is the best option…he wants to be seen with kids BUT he aint raising them…
The more love poured on a baby the better, a well rounded child needs the influence of BOTH male and female…so stop being so LEFT and RIGHT people…Meet in the middle, some people will be happy far right others happy far left… Others like me just wanna tread the middle ground..without the bad mouthing of either side. Respect Love and Peace.
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That’s the kind of discussion the people above are supposedly calling for. Heather Barwick addressed her “Dear Gay Community” in her Federalist piece and called for “hard conversation” with people like me about how I am hurting my children. This blog by Katy Faust called for “critical thinking”. I am trying to think critically and be dispassionate.
I am also capable of having a very emotional response about what I perceive to be two grown gay men calling my children names like schoolyard bullies, but I reserve that kind of discussion for my own blog.
I am not Christian and I was raised by lesbians. I agree with Heather Barwick and the gracious Bigot owner of this blog. So the question is How are you going to dismiss me? You can call me a liar, or some variation of crazy, or bigoted–remember though I am not a Christian–other missives you could say how rare our experience was and mention Zach W. about five times or and this you really are not going to like–you could listen and believe what the adult children are saying. I promise you in a few years we will be exploding. Do not be so arrogant as to imagine we are all liars or crazy or are hurt from a divorce–accept responsibility because we will hold LBGT accountable and we will make sure society at large does too. “BTW please no pearl clutching, or OMG how offensive” I am betting you have what I call captives,
Its pretty simple– If “your” children have been denied either a mother or a father you are hurting them. And in reality they are not yours and you violated their basic human rights. But hey you got the power and you own them. But perhaps you too also saved them from a junkie whore or a teenage slut or maybe you straight up bought them and used a surrogate. If that is the case you are also a misogynist and used a women as a breeder animal and bought other humans. Now you might think that sounds harsh. Perhaps people are more “tactful” I really do not care if you claim that offends. I think human trafficking is offensive and I am not willing to dress it up. No matter how the transaction took place or how much money changed hands the children are at your pleasure and something has been taken from them and denied them. You want to argue you have that right–go ahead. It is not that I do not understand you. It is that I do not believe you.
I’m not dismissing your personal experience. I am challenging how you generalize your personal experience onto others that may have different situations and sentiments.
You can challenge, but peoples experience is always generalized–that’s what makes common ground. There is no way to make it exceptional or rare without making claims that are likely to be untrue–such as I am rare an exception,or I am crazy, or I am a liar. These are the standard first lines of LBGT activist when they try to dismiss the adult children who have out grown their parents control. Bottom line our experience, feelings and thought do not support the narrative the movement wants. Notice Zach W. is never challenged–I am betting he does not get threats and his family is not threatened or harassed or bullied. He is in fact paid good money to talk about his experience.
On the other hand people are paid good money to keep us quiet. That’s a problem that when we do speak out we are attacked. I am truly in my heart convinced it is not good for children. And I will not be cowed by LBGT adults–call me a bigot a homophobe it has no affect on me–it works well on others though, a great silencer.
Now in all likelihood one of us is closer to being right than they are to being wrong. I happen to think that is me. You had straight parents I assume. I did not. Which one of us is more qualified to offer an opinion? I spent two decades in the gay community watching all the manipulations and distortions. Now some people do have religious motivations and I happen to trust those more than LBGT motivations because while they are more clumsy and feel untethered to me, I do not buy the whole “Christian Fundamentalist Bigot” that is like the boogie man–I have honestly never met one. Granted I do not frequent places where they may hang out but I suspect they are an exaggeration like Commies.
You want me to say it is okay to use women as reproductive slaves and buy children because you want them or to feel happy.I can’t. I can’t say adoption that denies a child a mother and a father is okay. To me it is abhorrent and a form of abuse. But then I grew up in LBGT and . . .
I know there will be many children suffering what is out side the scope of what you want to admit. One of us will be proved more right than the other in a few years–I suspect it will be the adult children of gays who are saying this is a very very bad idea. You imagine that it will keep moving forward in the direction laid out by the movement–okay. Time will tell. Until then I personally am not going to be quiet, cowed shamed or threatened.
You can say whatever you want. It doesn’t really affect my life to any significant degree. We have different viewpoints. I agree time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Nobody knows exactly what the future holds. I will wish us both long life so the one who was right gets to say “I told you so.”
You may not be Christian but you may still be a deeply religious person. Correct me if that is inaccurate. I am not dismissing your opinion, nor am I calling you a liar, crazy or a bigot.
I am not sure what you mean by deeply religious–I do not worry much about sin or hell fire and brimstone. I have not undergone a conversion. I am a Jew was born one. Have you ever seen a Jew protesting outside an abortion clinic? Or heard them preach against anything. Like I said 20 years in the Gay community is probably where I got most of my observations and conclusions. I am not a Chistian or a Moslem.
I am from New York and I have seen plenty of instances where Orthodox Jews have spoken out against homosexuality.
Orthodox Jews do not have a concept of “homosexual” or “heterosexual” for that matter. And marriages are not based on love or attraction so the whole thing is off the radar for the most part. They have man and woman and mother and father. They have biological sex not “gender” I am also from New York and I have never heard an Orthodox Jew use the word Homosexual–there is no such word in the languages they speak. They may have said something but it was not that word or it was just translated as that. They have no word and do not dabble in identity politics. Many are not even fluent in English.
I’m not going to argue semantics with you and I already stated in a previous post that I know better than to argue theology.
Again I would like to thank some of the posters here for showing true “Christian” love towards me and my family. This is not “love the sinner hate the sin”. This is nothing but an attack platform on those of us who have the compassion to open our homes and hearts to children that are in need.
If you want to attack me for adopting children and removing them from their bio parents (even though I had nothing to do with them being removed) then attack the blogger, she too has adopted a child and removed them from their bio parents. But I forgot, if the parents have a penis and a vagina then that MUST make it ok.
Now would you please stop “loving” me.
The Bigot never attacks–I am to the point and don’t mince words. I have a low BS threshold and since I grew up in LBGT I am more than a bit familiar with all the games and ploys. I also know every manipulation and trick LBGT plays and I do not play along. Yes a child need a mother and father–if you want to call Daddy a penis and mommy a vagina because it makes it easier for you to understand fine. I have never claimed to love you and I am not a Christian. I do believe that bigot may truly be loving. You put your children out and yourself out here. It is manipulative to do that and then claim to be attacked. You see here is the bottom line. Many of us know the real deal of what it means to grow up in LBGT and we want to spare as many children as we can. We believe children have rights and no adult has a right to children.
Thank you. I hope you find peace.
As for helenayberry’s good bye note.
It is almost a perfect example of standard LBGT rhetorical moves– sarcasm, scare quotes attempts to mock. Please note how snarky and disingenuous. She does not really mean “thank you” that is meant to hurt or shame. More importantly it is meant to inflict pain because LBGT inflicts pain–it is a response they think is okay to have. The children in the homes know this. How can a whole group do these exact same abusive moves I have no idea. I have asked myself that for years.
Now watch the shift. The false accusations of being attacked–more attempts to play guilt and shame.And the classic shift to the specter of the heroic self sacrifice. We are supposed to feel guilty and ashamed because a person by their own account is has saved children. And the ver
What is crucial is look at the manipulations in these few lines, the veiled insults, the fake reductions. Now please imagine a child having to live in that kind of mind games. Imagine the cruelty of those mind games on a child. They are somewhat nuanced but that kind of emotional manipulation is not good for children. These and many similar maneuvers are what kids in these homes have to deal with. It takes years and distance to recover. How long of refusing to be manipulated will it take until the manipulations stop?
What is becoming alarmingly evident in this thread is that the LBGT activists are incredibly bigoted against religious and heterosexual people. They have especially palpable contempt for Caucasians, Christians and married heterosexuals. A review of any gay ‘marriage’ and/or gay ‘parenting’ supporters comments reveals their unbelievable bigotry. I don’t think it is unrealistic to start to believe that these radicals are driven to their current extreme of demanding society force ‘marriage equality’ and force society to hand over our children, which comprise future generations of society, so as to ensure their ideology is perpetuated, even if their sexual preferences aren’t.
Many commenters here that simply ask that more work (research) be done before leaping on the “gay parenting is optimal for children” bandwagon express no affiliation with religion, gender or race; yet, the majority of these LBGT activists eventually deteriorate into a diatribe against religion (especially Christianity), race (strictly against ‘whites’) or gender (whichever gender the opposing commenter is thought or known to be is maligned).
It is obvious (and documented) that the LBGT lobby has intentionally (and, politically, very shrewdly) affiliated itself with the civil rights movement that corrected the wrongs of racial oppression (not based in nature), as well as with all socialist organizations that aim to ‘transform’ western civilization from free societies and democracies, based on Judeo-Christian philosophies, to authoritarian atheist governments. The formerly-just civil rights movement, which did a wonderful thing in the past, especially under the leadership of MLK, has sadly morphed into just another leftist, anarchist movement to overthrow Capitalism, and to suppress religion to the point of pushing it underground or into non-existence (absolute persecution), as it is under current Communist regimes. The link between the LBGT lobby and these other anarchist organizations is indisputable. There are probably some members or supporters of these LBGT lobbying organizations unaware of their organizations true motives, a few of them commenting here (their general ignorance, as documented, is also indisputable), and have been led to believe (indoctrinated) that all that is wanted is “equality”- they have no ability to see the underlying goals of the larger anarchist movement.
What is of most interest is that many commenters questioning the good to children and to society of the radical LBGT proposals re: children, sans any religious or gender or racial overtones, but, basing their argument solely on natural law, are redefined (such as was ‘marriage’) by the true bigots (the LBGT activists here) as fundamentalists, religious zealots, and other unseemly names, as well as suffering from attempts at reputation deconstruction. The redefinition of words, and the personal attacks of ‘freezing the subject and redefining them and their motives’ is right out of the architect of anarchy manifesto, Saul Alinsky’s ‘Rules for Radical’ on how the left can ‘transform’ the US from a democracy to a socialistic, authoritarian (oppressive) government who’s sole goal will be to control (enslave) their population via government dependency.
So, now, we know the forces behind the radical LBGT movement- which by itself would have not registered as even a blip on any scale, but, as aligned with much more powerful anarchist organizations, and their funding (George Soros is just one huge contributor), has managed to push their agenda through a weakened (by these same leftist radicals) court system. I expect the gay lobby here to attack, malign, deny and even attempt the ‘sympathy’ play in response to these facts, so as to attempt to beat-down the opposition- but, the one thing that they are absolutely incapable of doing is winning the nature argument- which clearly dictates the wrongness of their position.
We can expect to keep seeing these anatchists distract from the truth- which is that children are best left to their biological male-female parents- and, all else is secondary, or lesser.
The gay activist lobby needs to justify why lest than 2.3% (a generous estimate given the reality of obligate homosexuality) of the population gets to redefine marriage for the >97% of the greater population, as well as justify why less than 2.3% of their population gets to raise heterosexual children since statistically, >97% of those children will be heterosexual.
Then, they need to explain how they will provide the necessary mutually-beneficial two-sex model for those hetero children so that they are ‘fit’ to integrate into a majority hetero population, among the rest of their cohorts and peers.
And, finally, if its equal rights for minorities they use to rationalize their extreme positions, who’s to say that, given the right circumstances, that irrational genie they have freed from the bottle doesn’t turn on them and take up the equally irrational and bigoted cause of another minority of extremists that seek to harm, or annihilate, homosexuals and others they have deemed ‘undesirables’ from the population.
Any honest review of unrevised (accurate) history will attest to this reality. It’s never good when government is used by some to hammer on others, but, especially when nature is distorted into something ‘unnatural’ or ‘undesirable’ to do so.
Nothing good ever came out of defying nature.
Conspiracy theorists are treated and should be treated as disturbed. You are a clear case of one. In your deluded mind there are world conspiracies, “lobbies”, communists, anarchists and whole conglamations of tracking syndromes in what is simply a chapter in the human rights struggle of a minority that has existed till the dawn of time and will exist till this world is destroyed and has been severely prosecuted by your ilk for centuries.
Thank you for providing rhetoric that makes your already fringe, human hating and unsupported by actual data views, even more fringe.
I hope the future generations who will be wondering what the big deal was about with marriage equality and same sex parenting won’t judge you too harsh and will excuse you on grounds of true paranoia.
Unfortunately still people like you are out there attacking viciously families and fighting to strip them of their rights for now.
In all essence, you attack children though. Those children who have same sex parents, are doing just fine and do not need you to force your conspiracy theories on them.
People with common sense need to continue fighting for things that should go without saying it seems.
What a world we live in…
Read it and weep. It’s not exactly a secret that Soros funds your silly little leftist organizations.
As soon as he’s done using you dupes, he’ll dump you like the bimbos that you are- ask those he left in his lefty wake in Europe.
Your naiveté might be endearing, if it wasn’t so dangerous to our children, and our society.
Just for the fun of it:
As soon as your community figures out how to refer to their trannies, let the rest of us know. Meanwhile, keep your labels to yourselves.
And keep your ever-so-confused grubby hands off of our kids. Growing up is hard enough without all the drama that defines so very much of your LBGT community.
To close the loop on the “anyone who disagrees with our ideology is a bigot and a conspiracy theorist” tripe, here’s an article on Soros’ funding of the recent anarchy displayed in Ferguson, Mo. (doesn’t really matter what the truth is, right?).
This latest unjust war being waged on the prevailing culture, the male-female marriage, and parenting, by the gay left in this case (of which D&G are certainly not members), as funded by the HRC (foremost gay advocacy organization in the world) and other Soros funded entities, has nothing to do with gay rights, but, it has everything to do with forcing their leftist ideology on the rest of the world, just as the Ferguson riots had nothing to do with race.
Lets never kid ourselves about the forces behind the deconstruction of our society, and our form of free governance. These radicals are playing for keeps. Just ask D&G, and all the other victims of this malignant ideology- it has nothing to do with gay, or anybody else’s individual rights.
It is only about the rights and privilege’s of the state – to oppress their ‘enemies’.
I am afraid your lies and delusions won’t stop the progress of LGBT rights and human rights in general, neither will puppets of the catholic church like D&G.
Your ideological boss, the dear russian dictator Putin is already trying to establish his homophobic, anti-human rights agenda in Europe :
By funding far right populist parties and those who make them up, fascist conspiracists like you this man believes he can stop worldwide progress on human rights and establish a new soviety union.
This is all about basic guaranteed freedoms. The rise of the GOP, christian fundumentalism, UKIP, FN and all other far right populist fascist forces in the western developed world is all part of a radical agenda which takes advantage of fear.
That’s why the world congress of families, the major international anti-gay organization held its meeting in Moscow last year (or so it planned till the situation with Ukraine got too heated). Now, funded by the russian dictatorship and far right groups in the US, its coming to Salt Lake City to advance its agenda which includes mroe “gay propganda” laws like the one in Russia and ultimately of course the re criminalization of homosexuality.
Part of this effort to attack any minority in the name of populism and to divert people’s attention from the real problems, financial and administrative is the “Manhattan Declaration” :
Who funds that ? What are its final targets ?
People who believe in Human rights know what’s going on and they are already getting ready to fight your agenda, as it develops – the unholy alliance of the russian regime and its purposes and the far right leaders in the US who have for years been exporting their hate all around the world. From Scott Lively’s involvment to the passge of the inhuman anti-gay law in Uganda, to Peter Le Barbera’s visits and speeches in Jamaica to retain the anti-gay law criminalizing homosexuality, your agenda is loud and clear.
And the civilized world will resist it. You won’t establish the new fascist christian theocracy in the world. For that I can assure you.
Uh-boy, and this wing-nut accuses others of ‘conspiracy’ theories?
Yep, you’re right, Putin is behind the GOP- that bastion of KGB-style Communism and atheism. You may have failed to notice, but, its the Communist and atheist anarchists in the US all cozied up with your gay lobby.
In which former (or current) Eastern bloc hell-hole do you reside, anyway?
Remind me, which was the last ‘fascist Christian theocracy’ in the world?
Ever so glad that Christian-bashing is always on the lefties menus, though. But, that is not bigotry- right?
It takes no time or effort at all to reveal these bigots true intentions, and goals. Agitate much?
Again- where in nature is homosexual monogamous bonding for the purpose of rearing offspring practiced?
Monogamous pair bonding among male black swans. They raise young and their young actually have a better chance of survival than chicks raised by mixed sex pairs.
Braithwaite, L. W., ‘Ecological studies of the Black Swan III – Behaviour and social organization’, Australian Wildlife Research 8, 1981: 134-146
Braithwaite, L. W., ‘The Black Swan’, Australian Natural History 16, 1970: 375-379
There are hordes of studies documenting a minor occurrence of same-sex pairing in multitudes of species, for which there are as many reasons for it (skewed sex ratios, bio-geographical limitations/pressures, ecological deprivations, etc.). But, what has never been scientifically (not politically) validated is that same sex pair bonding is biologically (evolutionarily) advantageous (to the individual, to the population, to the community or to the species) to opposite sex pair bonding, or, that same sex pair bonding enhances/increases (benefits) the survival of the offspring (in spite of this particular authors’ theorized conjecture).
We can document murder and battering in some primates, as well as ‘gangs’ of young male orcas ‘raping’ females- but, as we know, it isn’t advantageous to the species- it is aberrant behavior that is eventually bred out of that particular population over time.
Sorry- the data you seek just isn’t there (I am even willing to add “yet” since no knowledge door should be closed).
There isn’t one honest advocate (activists aside- they are not honest- they are political operatives), no matter how well intentioned or loving, of same-sex parenting that isn’t internally seeking the truth regarding the heart of this debate, and that is: is it actually best for children to be raised in same sex households if they have an option to be raised in opposite sex households- all other household criteria being equal? This question goes beyond the fitness of the individual child, it applies also to the fitness of the child’s community, population and species.
That’s the billion-dollar question (for the purveyors of baby flesh, at least).
Who’s thinking about the fate (fitness) of the children of these unions in some unknown future culture- when you and your community’s radicalized advocates are long gone from this world?
The last fascist christian theocracy will be the one GOP and your ilk are trying to establish. For now your current model are christian countries like Kenya (they recently enacted a polygamy law and based it on the bible btw) and Russia (with the Orthodox church having very large influence over the legislative agenda).
Oh the good old “christian bashing”…Which is what ? The effort of people of other beliefs and no beliefs in deities to defend their rights in a secular country under a secular constitution. That’s very oppresive for the christian agenda indeed who won;t stop until everyone it terrified enough to bow down to its whims and laws. In many states many citizens and representatives would love to establish biblical law as the law of the land btw.
As for the homosexual monogamous relationships in nature who raise offspring it is well documented in nature and under conditions of captivity (I have given an example above of a male penguin couple who took under their care and hatched an egg its original parents did not care about hatching – and they became the best parents according to the scientists watching them !).
There exists no scientific validation of same sex pair bonding that isn’t directly correlated with aberrant behavior; including your penguins. Zoos are admittedly notorious for producing and/or creating captives that exhibit aberrant behaviors, those very same behaviors your penguins exhibited.
Your ‘knowledge’ of the most basic tenets of Christianity is as astoundingly deficient as your knowledge of basic biology.
Your tedious argument is ridiculous – stick to your own special version of radicalized ideology, at least it’s a place where you seem to find some semblance of intellectual (and certainly emotional) comfort; albeit, no truth.
Unless you radicals are spewing your mundane GLAAD and HRC ‘talking points’, you are as out of step with reality as your same sex penguin ‘couple’ would be in the wild.
I will just let you continue your radical, hateful, unscientific, fanatic rumblings.
There is nothing you CAN do anyway to stop the progress of human rights.
Your intellectual level is as high as that of a conspiracy theorist can be mixed with blind hatred for a heavily persecuted minority.
You watch the world from inside this fringe, hateful bubble and think everyone else lives in one. It’s natural. But the most sad thing is that you think, in all your delusion and hatred, that you own some truth.
I, and the rest of the society, will let you maintain that illusion. What society will not allow you is formate public policy. On that you will fail. Truth and facts will prevail.
Continue being a regular on this blog for heavily traumatized from divorce people who blame sexual orientation for eveything that has happened to them. Such places will be becoming more and more scarce as the reality kicks in as it already does : the reality about lgtbt people, their families and their children. The shelters you have created to protect your radical, dilusional ideas, against every scientific reality may comfort you for now. But once you get out to the real world ? What there ? That’s where you become dangerous. But society has ways of protecting itself from you.
At the same time human society as well as penguins and so many other species will continue doing what’s natural and normal to them even if you try to degrade it (albeit poorly as the hatred you carry and the conspiracy theory mentality you have – the radical right american kind “dat communism is to be blamed” – does not allow you for much more).
You are yourself so out of step with scientific, social and natural reality I can only feel pitty for you and the people here 🙂 I am glad you are at least able to find comfort on such fringe places of the online world.
As long as you keep your hateful urges under control and just rant irrationally here and don’t pose a direct danger yourselves to all those LGBT people and their families you can keep ranting for all I care.
The problem is that your ilk, driven by your ideas, is becoming dangerous and violent the more you feel your “ideas” are marginalized by the factual reality. And that continues to keep the flames of homophobia going. That will be fought I can assure.
Continue blaming the conspiracies and the “communists” and the “radicals” on this little bubble you have found yourself. Someday (and with the proper treatment) you may look at yourself on the mirro and realize who is the radical one.
My deepest condolences and sympathy for your situation. Take care !
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Its all about the strongest lobby groups who don’t care one bit about you individually. Everyone should be free to love and commit as they wish, no one is denying this. But don’t try and shove your decisions on others, most especially the children that did not ask to be put in a position outside what would have been their right – to be created with dignity and love. Just stop being selfish, accept your limitations and get on with life. Let others have their say and don’t hog the microphone.
Part of commitment is the promise to take care of one another, even after death. What about survivorship benefits? What about the federal estate tax and social security benefits? Are we supposed to love and commit but after we die our partners are on their own?
Absolutely not- you deserve every benefit afforded all domestic partners in committed relationships. Don’t confuse domestic union or partner issues with marriage- they are different. I want to see all same sex unions receive the same benefits regarding survivorship and tax and other social benefits- we just can’t wantonly sacrifice the children of current and future generations to these unions until we know more, much more, about their ultimate fitness to propagate optimally. That requirement is in all our best interest- as humans.
And everyone has to be prepared for answers based in reality, and not politics, they may not like.
Jae, even though we clearly do not agree on certain matters, I appreciate that your stance is nuanced. However, many of your peers on the same side of this issue are wholesale against any legal recognition of same sex couples at all. Some of them would be very happy if we were all rounded up and executed. Perhaps if more people like you or Ms. Faust spoke up within your own camp to develop a more refined position, stood up to some of the truly hateful people and publicly disavowed some of these hurtful actions, people on my side would be less inclined to perceive you all as “bigots”. I agree that the label “bigot” is unfair for many, but there are many in your midst to whom the label truly applies.
Yes, docrocki, there is true, dangerous hate and bigotry, on both sides. When we do speak up on ‘our’ side, we are shouted down by the very well organized opposition as soon as they realize that we don’t walk in lock-step with every demand of their very radicalized activist antagonists.
I don’t experience any opposition to same sex unions being granted the same legal protections as opposite sex unions in my circles (or my midst). I also don’t see any public demonstrations opposing basic rights for gays (aside from the very few vocal loons and zealots – who represent no one but their own hateful selves) in North America, South America, Central America, Europe or Australia and New Zealand (I wont speak for or defend Asia or Africa policies against gays, which originate more from their cultures and governments than any religiously- based [scriptural] oppression). I am not a political party member or supporter (pure Independent), but, I don’t see any authentic (main stream) political platforms in any party in free nations trying to deny these basic rights.
There is a huge middle ground here- the sane voices on both sides will find it and work through the issues. We need to rediscover our genteel roots, and not revert to activist trolling, to work through the varying philosophies, and other sciences to arrive at a mutually-beneficial outcome.
I don’t think you need to look that far away. Majority votes in state legislatures are passing Religious Freedom Acts and a Governor is signing off on one as we speak. I don’t really care about cake and flowers. But these acts are so broadly worded that they basically allow any private business or government employee to deny service based on religious belief. So an EMT or a police officer can leave LGBT people to die out in the street if they say the Bible told them so. Are you okay with this? If not, by all means say something. I am not shouting you down, I am encouraging you to speak up and add some depth to the conservative platform.
And please note that I understand this cuts both ways. I sometimes disagree with statements made by other LGBT people. I think the “tranny controversy” that you posted about earlier was an example of how LGBT people do not always see eye to eye, and internal disagreement can actually sometimes be a healthy thing to work out in the long run.
I actually prefer for florists, bakeries, restaurants, private schools and everything in between to tell me ahead of time that they have a problem with me and I will happily take my business elsewhere without lawyering up. But to permit safety officers, healthcare workers and other people that provide aid in emergencies to excuse themselves from helping their common man in distress is utterly inhumane.
None of the mainstream or ‘great’ religions support criminal behavior (felony) that would deny anyone access to healthcare or any life protecting or preserving treatment.
By the same token, we need to be sure we do not trample on a persons conscious- of which their religion is usually the defining element.
The only real crossroads I see right now between the two camps is the gay ‘marriage’ and child rearing issue.
I also agree that the marketplace should be permitted to ‘correct’ for biases. This can be a self-regulating problem for which there need not be government intervention, and even oppression.
I don’t see where these laws only apply to mainstream religions. The Church of Scientology is a tax exempt religious organization in the US and they are openly opposed to psychiatrists and mental health treatment because they consider it to be torture.
Police are frequently called upon to transport mentally ill people to hospitals to prevent them from hurting themselves or other people. What happens the next time a police officer who happens to be a Scientologist gets one of these calls?
Admittedly this is a rare situation but it could happen. And all it will take is one situation like this where someone gets hurt in one of these states with these laws, and then you will have politicians backpeddling saying “That’s not what we meant…”
Medical and law enforcement employees takes oaths, and are required by law, not to discriminate against anyone for any reason. There is no exemption in any laws in western culture that would permit such a crime.
Those with religious convictions that might present such challenges to their conscious are obligated to ensure they work in fields that would not present such challenges. We all have these obligations, both sides of this argument.
As a vegetarian, I would not expect to be able to work in a steak house and then be legally protected when I refuse to serve meat.
Everyone must sacrifice, and then live with the outcomes of their biological roles and life choices – there are no free rides for any of us.
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